heartofdakota.com

Posted: **Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:48 pm**

We've made it to Unit 6 in Bigger with DS8 and most of it is going fairly well. He's adjusted to the increased handwriting, enjoys poetry, likes the science activities, etc. But the history....oh my. I might as well be reading it to him in Greek. He is totally oblivious unless I explain what's going on every 2-5 lines. He tells me time and time again that he's trying to listen but when I glance over at him he's got a deer-in-the-headlights look. I know the comprehension is pretty non-existant. And I'll be honest - I find parts of it a bit dry, too. I try as best as I can to "liven" it up and make it interesting but most of the time it is an utter fail.

Is this common for boys his age? Should I be concerned? Is there a remedy, approach, tactic, or hold-your-tongue-just-right move that will help his comprehension? For what it's worth, we are reading Seabiscuit right now, too, and it's the same story. He's in la-la-land for most of the reading. I guess if he's just not interested he's just not interested. Of course it's totally different when we read a story that grabs his attention just like it would for anyone. But not everything can be a perfect fit, right? That's what challenges us to stretch ourselves and grow, right? So how do I successfully encourage this stretching and growing?

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:30 am**

I'm going to be perfectly honest here, and I hope Carrie certainly doesn't take this the wrong way, but we too found the history in Bigger to be boring. We are doing Preparing right now and it is OUT OF THIS WORLD GOOD! But I understand, like you said, not everything is always going to be what our children love, etc. However the problem is finding a way to get something out of it while we are doing it. SeaBiscuit is another hard one because there are a lot of horse names, track names, etc. that I would find difficult to be on the listening end as well...it's easier to follow it when you are the one reading it.

I'm curious if you have your son sit right next to you? Perhaps flip thru the pages you are supposed to read in the history spine and when you see a picture, talk about the picture first. Discuss what he thinks the picture is about. Then tell him to listen to the reading and when we get to the part that has to do with the picture to immediately tell you! Kinda like he has a clue, but doesn't know how or when it's going to appear in the reading. Perhaps if he is intent of hearing the part it pertains to, he'll be more likely to really listen in on the reading altogether.

Fortunately, the readings in Bigger aren't too long. Another thing you may consider doing is reading the Key Idea to him first prior to reading the spine. Talk about the key idea, then read the pages. Kinda like reading the synopsis on the back of a book before you start the book itself. I always like to have an idea what it is I'm reading about.

Hopefully some of these ideas will work??!

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:40 am**

Thanks Tiffanie! I think I've tried just about every seating configuration but nothing seems to be "it". And I agree about reading the key idea first - that does seem to help, too. Really, he has his best retention when he does the reading. In fact, I started having him pre-read his science pages while I work with dd. That way when we read it together he has a better idea of what has been read.

I like the idea of looking at the pictures first and then trying to listen for it in the reading - I may give that one a go tomorrow.

I'm glad to hear about the history in Preparing. That gives me hope that he may be totally put out with history forever.

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:51 am**

What if you read the first half of the reading outloud to him and then let him read the rest of it outloud to you or to himself? Do you think that might help with his retention? My first DS is a visual learner, not an auditory one. So, while reading outloud and him being able to retain the information is definitely a skill he needs to grow in and be stretched, he does better when he reads it outloud himself or silently. HTH a little bit!

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:57 am**

Oh my, our boys had the exact opposite reaction - they LOVED the Eggleston books used for history in Bigger Hearts! In fact, they were arguing about who would get to have the "red books" when Riley was done with BHFHG. Both of them wanted them - including my oldest who did BHFHG 5 years ago!

I posted about it here...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11358

I guess that everyone has different favorites, for sure

Certainly not every book will be a total hit. Not to mention all of the varied follow-ups dc get to do. Blessedly, Carrie has chosen so many amazing living books among the Storytime, Reading about History, DITHOR, Science, Bible Study/Devotions, and Independent History books. Some will be a hit for sure.

Anyway, with all of the living books there are in HOD, our dc always are connecting with something well - so much more 'feeding to the soul' than ps textbooks. I do think the history books in BHFHG are "old worldly" sounding, and take a bit to adjust to. I also think they are very Charlotte Mason-like, and they have a lot of 'depth' to them that may take time for novice listeners to fully comprehend. That is kind of neat though - a stretching of the mind, a growing of the comprehension capabilities. I think it leads to understanding books that take some work, which is a worthy exercise of the mind.

Hope something here helps, but I guess I'd read the history, do the follow-ups, and move on, not trying to jazz anything up. Time may help ds to learn to appreciate this kind of book, but even the lesson of school is "not meant to be entertainment always, and sometimes something won't be your favorite, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have inherent worth to your education" is a wonderful lesson to learn.

I know I have found some new 'favorites' that used to be my 'least favorites' this way. You never know, this could become a favorite down the road and surprise you! Or, it could just be a book that taught him some excellent history in a living way that he didn't love so much. Either way, it's a win!

In Christ,
Julie

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:16 am**

Whitney,

One thing that will definitely be an adjustment and take some time to grow into in BIgger is the upped level of readings. It is important to note as you head into these higher level readings that in a Charlotte Mason living books approach to education the parent is not to get between the child and the reading. With this thought in mind, a couple of things stood out to me in your post.

When you mentioned that you are stopping to explain every 2-5 lines, this is actually getting in between the child and the material. While I can see that you are striving to make the connections for your child, in the process this interrupts the flow of the story which actually makes it much harder to comprehend. Just imagine if while you were reading a book that I paused randomely to interject my own thoughts after every 2-5 lines, and then when I paused in my commentary I expected you to go back to reading, stopping each time I explained, and then returning to the reading each time. How difficult would it be to follow the thread of the story? Next, when you try to "liven" the history readings up, I am assuming this also means that you are adding or embellishing. This is also the equivalent of getting in between the child and the reading. In the end, it is hard for the child to know what was actually in the reading and what parts were your comments or explanations. Somehow, the child loses the whole thread of the story in the jumble.

So, first of all, I would encourage you to just read the story without interruption, or stopping to explain, or embellishing. I would read with plenty of expression, but not add any commentary. If you do choose to "set the stage", Charlotte Mason would advocate doing it before the reading. You could do this by saying something brief like, "It looks like we will be reading about John Smith and Jamestown today. I wonder what will happen as the colonists try to settle where the Native Americans are already living?"

Once you begin reading though, be sure not to interrupt the reading. This will also keep the readings from dragging, as they are very short! Typically, they aren't longer than 5-7 min. After the reading, just do the follow-up activities in the guide. Be sure not to make your child feel like he is on a quiz show at the end of the reading and that you are quizzing him to see how well he listens. So, I would encourage you not to closely question him about the reading. Rather, just proceed on with what is already scheduled in the guide. Truly, the methods that are there are meant to encourage comprehension, build listening skills, and foster narration. I'll link you to another post running on the board right now that should really encourage you in this area. Link: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12621

You mentioned listening improving when your son is interested in the material. I'll just share that the Eggleston books and Seabiscuit are very high reading level books, so I am assuming that they are at a much higher level than the material you typically read-aloud to your son. With all children, it is easier to pay attention and comprehend when something is at a lower level, because it does not require as much work on the part of the listener to attend to the reading. For example, if you were listening to a show like Barney (the big purple dinosaur), you could probably comprehend it very easily even if you were only partly listening. However, if you were listening to a documentary about the Presidents, you would need to sit down, focus, and really pay attention; and even then you would probably not take in "all" of what you heard, but rather bits and pieces that stood out to you. The same is true for our children when they are listening to a read-aloud that is more difficult.

They have to sit down, focus, really pay attention; and even then they cannot take it "all" in, but rather they remember bits and pieces that stood out to them.

Sometimes the deer in the headlights look is not about being bored but is rather the stricken look children get when they fear we will ask them a question that they do not know the answer to and that they will be judged on their answer as to whether they were listening or not. This is why I encourage you not to question your child beyond what is in the Bigger guide at this point, as listening is the skill we are developing. Too many skills all at once overwhelm a child.

Listening and comprehending higher level material is hard work. It is a skill to be developed that does not occur overnight, or even in six weeks. It is one of the main goals of Bigger Hearts and is so needed in order for the child to thrive in Preparing Hearts. By the end of Bigger though, I know you will see good gains!

Blessings,
Carrie

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:36 am**

Carrie wrote:Whitney,

One thing that will definitely be an adjustment and take some time to grow into in BIgger is the upped level of readings. It is important to note as you head into these higher level readings that in a Charlotte Mason living books approach to education the parent is not to get between the child and the reading. With this thought in mind, a couple of things stood out to me in your post.

When you mentioned that you are stopping to explain every 2-5 lines, you are actually getting in between the child and the material. While I can see that you are striving to make the connections for your child, in the process you are interrupting the flow of the story which actually makes it much harder to comprehend. Just imagine if while you were reading a book that I paused randomely to interject my own thoughts after every 2-5 lines, and then when I paused in my commentary I expected you to go back to reading, stopping each time I explained, and then returning to the reading each time. How difficult would it be to follow the thread of the story? Next, when you try to "liven" the history readings up, I am assuming this also means that you are adding or embellishing. This is also the equivalent of getting in between the child and the reading. In the end, it is hard for the child to know what was actually in the reading and what parts were your comments or explanations. Somehow, the child loses the whole thread of the story in the jumble.

So, first of all, I would encourage you to just read the story without interruption, or stopping to explain, or embellishing. I would read with plenty of expression, but not add any commentary. If you do choose to "set the stage", Charlotte Mason would advocate doing it before the reading. You could do this by saying something brief like, "It looks like we will be reading about John Smith and Jamestown today. I wonder what will happen as the colonists try to settle where the Native Americans are already living?"

Once you begin reading though, be sure not to interrupt the reading. This will also keep the readings from dragging, as they are very short! Typically, they aren't longer than 5-7 min. After the reading, just do the follow-up activities in the guide. Be sure not to make your child feel like he is on a quiz show at the end of the reading and that you are quizzing him to see how well he listens. So, I would encourage you not to closely question him about the reading. Rather, just proceed on with what is already scheduled in the guide. Truly, the methods that are there are meant to encourage comprehension, build listening skills, and foster narration. I'll link you to another post running on the board right now that should really encourage you in this area. Link: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12621

You mentioned listening improving when your son is interested in the material. I'll just share that the Eggleston books and Seabiscuit are very high reading level books, so I am assuming that they are at a much higher level than the material you typically read-aloud to your son. With all children, it is easier to pay attention and comprehend when something is at a lower level, because it does not require as much work on the part of the listener to attend to the reading. For example, if you were listening to a show like Barney (the big purple dinosaur), you could probably comprehend it very easily even if you were only partly listening. However, if you were listening to a documentary about the Presidents, you would need to sit down, focus, and really pay attention; and even then you would probably not take in "all" of what you heard, but rather bits and pieces that stood out to you. The same is true for our children when they are listening to a read-aloud that is more difficult. They have to sit down, focus, really pay attention; and even then they cannot take it "all" in, but rather they remember bits and pieces that stood out to them. Sometimes the deer in the headlights look is not about being bored but is rather the stricken look children get when they fear we will ask them a question that they do not know the answer to and that they will be judged on their answer as to whether they were listening or not. This is why I encourage you not to question your child beyond what is in the Bigger guide at this point, as listening is the skill we are developing. Too many skills all at once overwhelm a child.

Listening and comprehending higher level material is hard work. It is a skill to be developed that does not occur overnight, or even in six weeks. It is one of the main goals of Bigger Hearts and is so needed in order for the child to thrive in Preparing Hearts. By the end of Bigger though, I know you will see good gains!

Blessings,
Carrie

Carrie,

Does this mean that we shouldn't be asking our children to answer the questions that are in the Eggleston guides, following each section? I've been doing that because I thought it was similar to having my ds narrate, but if they're not necessary, it'd be nice to save the time and pressure.

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:59 pm**

I'm doing Bigger with a 10 year old, and a 7 year old. The younger sometimes has a harder time narrating the history readings, but I'm guessing that will develop with time. I check out picture books and other readers from the library each week to go along with the history readings. If I read another more simple version of the story, he has no problem. I found a great list on another HOD mom's blog of other books to check out each unit.

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:06 pm**

daybreaking,

This is a great question!

You do not need to be doing the questions in the Eggleston book at the end of the readings. The follow-ups in the Bigger guide replace this.

Blessings,
Carrie

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:18 pm**

waterandclay,

While you can easily add additional read-alouds to Bigger's history if desired, I did want to clarify that it's still important that children doing Bigger actually learn to listen to, comprehend, and narrate from the higher level history books that are scheduled in Bigger's plans. This is because the skills gained from attending to books with few pictures and more difficult vocabulary and plotlines are essential skills needed as kiddos progress on into Preparing Hearts.

So, if your 7 year old ends up getting most of the history content from additional simpler read-alouds that you've added, rather than from the main spines, it will make it very difficult for that child to hang on as you head into Preparing on up. This is because the material just keeps getting more difficult, and the skills in one guide prepare a child well for the next guide in line.

So, I just wanted to mention that at this juncture for you to ponder, especially in the case of your 7 year old, because HOD is designed so incrementally that each skill has its needed place.

If your 7 year old isn't able to hang with the history readings by the time you get further into the guide, it is possible that child is placed over his/her head (which is something to consider in the long run). Otherwise, you'll end up finding yourself in the position of trying to find easier books all along the way for your child and that is no solution in the long haul, because your young one will be able to truly do less and less of the guide as you move up through the years.

It is possible that your 7 year old is just adjusting to the readings and the rigor of Bigger and will do fine. It's just important to watch and know what you are looking for as the guide progresses.

Blessings,
Carrie

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:37 pm**

Carrie,
Thank you for the guidelines, as we are doing Bigger now. Angie seems to be doing okay with the history, though, more than likely, doesn't get it all. But she seems to be getting the jist of the stories. I go over the words and definitions at the end of the chapter to make sure she knows the meanings. I may go back and read the sentences with those words in them. Should I do that before I do the reading? The vocabulary is helping with comprehension.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:27 am**

my3sons wrote:Oh my, our boys had the exact opposite reaction - they LOVED the Eggleston books used for history in Bigger Hearts! In fact, they were arguing about who would get to have the "red books" when Riley was done with BHFHG.

This was our experience too. We all have favorites and books we don't care for. We have learned from them all.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:39 am**

netpea wrote:
my3sons wrote:Oh my, our boys had the exact opposite reaction - they LOVED the Eggleston books used for history in Bigger Hearts! In fact, they were arguing about who would get to have the "red books" when Riley was done with BHFHG.
This was our experience too. We all have favorites and books we don't care for. We have learned from them all.

Love both of these answers. We to (or at least I am) are loving the history. We are in unit 6. I love the purity of the books chosen and I am learning so much along with her. My Bigger girl is 9 1/2 years old. I love that the guide does a great job summarizing the major point of the history lesson.

I would suggest maybe finding some fun books from the library, videos, or even something online to beef it up for him a little? Part of post removed by board moderator per board rules.

(((hugs)))

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:39 am**

We enjoyed these history books here, too!

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:24 am**

Pam,

That is a great question!

Charlotte Mason would advocate doing that type of activity prior to the reading. She did at times list key words for the students prior to the reading and briefly discuss them to set the stage for what was coming.

Just make sure not to interrupt the reading, or narrative, once you get underway!

Blessings,
Carrie

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History in Bigger is draaaaging...

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