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Hi!

I am Loving the catalogue. The CTC looks exactly like the program I would put together for ancients, if I knew how to put one together. It has so many resources that I have wanted to use with my children!

I am keeping our younger 3 with our current curriculum for now for phonics program reasons; we are part way through the phonics in that program and I like them. So it is my oldest I am trying to place.

My oldest is 8 years old, and will turn 9 in July. Next fall, if he was in school, he would either be an older 3rd grader, or a very young 4th grader. We started curriculum when he turned 6 three years ago. This year he did an overview of American History, Bible Study, Rod and Staff English 2, Italic Cursive Book D (I am wanting to teach him traditional cursive this year though), All About Spelling book 2 that includes weekly dictation, Primary Language Lessons (first half of book, which included picture study, copy work, dictation, narration, etc.), Singapore 2A and started 2B, Rosetta Stone Spanish, Calculaddar math drills, the first half of Apologia Astronomy with the Junior Note book (which if we did Preparing I would finish with him), and copied one Bible verse a week. Occasionally he would have to do some original writing for R&S or PLL. He did write his own note book summaries for the Astronomy note book and the US note book; they were usually one sentence in length, and sometimes two.

Would Preparing or CTC be better for him? He is very bright, but still very 8. How long are the dictations in Preparing? How long are the dictations in CTC? Is there copy work in either?

Thank you ladies!

Some additional information: He reads at an 8th grade/9th grade level with great reading comprehension and understanding. He has completed up through grade 7 of the Pathway readers. He doesn't like the physical act of writing, so for 2nd grade this year I didn't push the writing. The reason I didn't consider Bigger was the fact he is just finishing R&S English 2, which is used for Bigger and the fact that he has been doing 1 to 2 sentence dictations without spelling mistakes for a year (usually also without pre-study). Thank you!

Honestly his skills sound like they line up more with bigger, but I understand you just did American History. So I would put him in Preparing. He does not sound ready for CTC. There is copywork in both programs. The copywork in Preparing is a little shorter than in CTC, but can still be long(sometimes a long paragraph). There is usually some sort of copywork almost every day. Dictation depends on what level you start him at. It is studied dictation and so he studies it and then you dictate it to him a phrase at a time and he has to write it with correct spelling and punctuation. Where I think the challenge will be is in written narrations. In Preparing it guides dc gently to do written narrations of I think 5 sentences in length at first. It is very different than doing a summary. You want the dc to use some of their own words and some of the authors words to retell the story. It is a challenging skill. In CTC it is assumed they have some practice with this and the narrations are longer and not as guided. The reading level in CTC is much higher and the content of the readings could be tough for a child that young to understand and then have to do a written narration on. CTC requires deeper thinking skills for things like the Prophecy chart. Many 11 year olds struggle with CTC. Preparing also has a gentle introduction to creative writing that goes along with the Poetry reading. CTC is a full blown writing program that works up to them writing fairly long pieces. I understand you like the looks of CTC but I really think you would end up tweaking so many things and really adjusting it for him that he wouldn't get the full benefit of the program and would not be able to be independent in the boxes where he is expected to be independent. Proper placement is key for HOD unlike some other programs.

LynnH wrote:Honestly his skills sound like they line up more with bigger, but I understand you just did American History. So I would put him in Preparing. He does not sound ready for CTC. There is copywork in both programs. The copywork in Preparing is a little shorter than in CTC, but can still be long(sometimes a long paragraph). There is usually some sort of copywork almost every day. Dictation depends on what level you start him at. It is studied dictation and so he studies it and then you dictate it to him a phrase at a time and he has to write it with correct spelling and punctuation. Where I think the challenge will be is in written narrations. In Preparing it guides dc gently to do written narrations of I think 5 sentences in length at first. It is very different than doing a summary. You want the dc to use some of their own words and some of the authors words to retell the story. It is a challenging skill. In CTC it is assumed they have some practice with this and the narrations are longer and not as guided. The reading level in CTC is much higher and the content of the readings could be tough for a child that young to understand and then have to do a written narration on. CTC requires deeper thinking skills for things like the Prophecy chart. Many 11 year olds struggle with CTC. Preparing also has a gentle introduction to creative writing that goes along with the Poetry reading. CTC is a full blown writing program that works up to them writing fairly long pieces. I understand you like the looks of CTC but I really think you would end up tweaking so many things and really adjusting it for him that he wouldn't get the full benefit of the program and would not be able to be independent in the boxes where he is expected to be independent. Proper placement is key for HOD unlike some other programs.

Thank you for the beginning insights. Perhaps I should add that he reads at a 8th or 9th grade level with good understanding & comprehension, but the writing isn't close to that level. I haven't pushed the writing, and his interest isn't there. He used to dictate pages of stories when he was little, but that was a long time ago.

I was just looking at the ages of the programs and for Preparing he would be in the middle age and for CTC at the younger end. It is so difficult to tell by just looking at the catalogue. I also noticed that Bigger uses the Rod and Staff English 2 book that we are just in the process of finishing, so that is main reason that I wasn't thinking that direction. It also looks like she starts dictation in Bigger, and he has been doing 1 - 2 sentence dictations for a year without spelling mistakes, so I thought Bigger would be too easy for him. This kid needs challenge next year. His current program has only challenged him in the areas where I have added to it, and I am frustrated with the 'holding back' that has happened. It is what would happen if I sent him to school, and I really want to challenge him for 3rd grade so that he can start to grow and learn again. He is ready for independent Bible study, and much more information in a lot of areas. He learns and memorizes very quickly, but he doesn't like the physical act of writing with a pencil so he keeps that part as short as possible!

The dictations in PLL are long, but I have broken them down to one or two sentences at a time. Due to our start date I did consider this to be his 2nd grade year, if that helps. I only recently started doing the dictations studied; prior to that he could do them without spelling errors without studying them first. They are starting to become hard enough that one or two words need to be studied for a minute, and then he is able to get it correct on first time dictation.

Thank you for the initial input. It sounds like Preparing would challenge him if the copy work is a paragraph. It would be longer than the copying that he has been doing. I welcome any other insights into the HOD Program! Thank you!

Now I am confused. Should I be picking Bigger, Preparing, or CTC?

I would really look at the placement chart. After you clarified things more I think Preparing sounds like a good fit. I went down and looked at my ds's CTC notebook and there is a lot of writing between copywork, written narrations that start at 5-8 sentences and then Write with the Best. I just think that would be overwhelming for someone that hasn't done much writing and doesn't have a big interest in it yet. If you are going to do regular cursive this year also that gives time for him to grow in that area before the writing demands ncrease.

LynnH wrote:I would really look at the placement chart. After you clarified things more I think Preparing sounds like a good fit. I went down and looked at my ds's CTC notebook and there is a lot of writing between copywork, written narrations that start at 5-8 sentences and then Write with the Best. I just think that would be overwhelming for someone that hasn't done much writing and doesn't have a big interest in it yet. If you are going to do regular cursive this year also that gives time for him to grow in that area before the writing demands ncrease.

Thank you Lynn! This is really helpful. Written narrations that start at 5 - 8 sentences and then Write with the Best would be beyond where he is at, and I agree with you that it would be too much. I am wanting to stretch him next year, but not frustrate him. Does that make sense? I am planning on regular cursive for next year.

How much writing does Preparing start with?

I think he is capable of much more writing than we have been doing, and I have been preparing him for a writing increase for 3rd. I just read on another thread that everyone loves Preparing so very much. It could be a great place to start. I am getting the idea that HOD is more academically advanced than I realized from the catalogue. Great!

I wanted to add that I use Bigger as a 3rd grade program. I use it with Rod and Staff 3 - even though R & S 2 is what is scheduled. I also use DiTHOR with appropriate level of literature to go with it. You should definitely go to the placement chart and see where he falls on the placement chart. I would also add that Bigger sets up Preparing so perfectly that it made Preparing so enjoyable for my son. Bigger was a tough guide for us to work through because it carefully and thoroughly builds very important skills (especially in the area of writing).
I suppose - even with an advanced reader - I would be inclined to work through Bigger before heading into Preparing. Preparing is an amazing guide - and it has been my favorite guide so far - but I am convinced that part of what has made it so good for us this year is that Bigger helped build in my son the skills he needed to make it Preparing so enjoyable!
By the way, my son was super advanced in reading, but not so much with writing. He scored off the charts for reading, but his writing scores were at and a little below grade level. After doing Bigger and then about 23-24 weeks of Preparing, his writing scores were the highest scores that he got. He scored higher in the area of writing than any other area!

In Preparing written narrations start at 3-5 sentences and work up to 5 sentences. There is so much guidance it is wonderful. There are guided questions and also phrasing for how to start the narration and then an editing checklist where they work on one skill at a time such as making sure the first sentence is on the right topic or begin each sentence with a capital letter and end each sentence with the correct punctuation etc.

For the writing that goes with the Poetry there is also guidance and you do it with the student and usually are writing their ideas on a white board so they can then put it into a paragraph or a poem.

There are 3 levels of studied dictation in Preparing. Level 2 is the first level and about half way through has things like "The nest was made of mud and straw. The robin laid four blue eggs" The beginning of Level 3 has things like "Dogs and sheep carry seeds around and drop them. Some seeds are carried away by wind and water." Level 3 gets harder to where it is 2 medium length sentences with words like whatsoever, prophets etc. Level 4 gets pretty challenging. In the first third there are ones like "When Robin blew his horn, all his men appeared in answer to his call. The king saw he was not frightened, and he admired Robin's wit and wisdom so much that he told him it was King Richard who stood before him."

In addition to this writing there is the copywork each week and once a week there are written answers to science questions that they do. I also forgot that one time a week they write out vocabulary cards which is 3-5 vocabulary words and their definitions.

It is a very complete program and really build academic skills in a fun way.

Consider first where he places on the placement chart-if he places between levels, pick the lower one. As for being an advanced reader, you can always purchase the extension books for him to read on his free time, but focus on doing the guide he places in as written, he will get more out of it without being overwhelmed. I have a 12 year old who reads at college level, but I would not push her to do college level work. She just gets lots of library books to fill her free time She is doing CTC with extensions as a 7th grader, and it is pretty full. From what you have shared, Bigger sounds like a good placement and will get him ready for a successful year with Preparing the following year As the previous poster stated, you can substitute Rod and Staff 3, and the American History in Bigger will be fresh-it is covered in a biographical manner with so much fun stuff to do-it won't be the same as whatever he did before. It's up to you though, see what the placement chart says, for sure.

While reading level and comprehension is important it is TRULY only a piece of the placement puzzle. Use the chart and go with the lower guide. There are ways to maximize a guide with higher levels for math, English, and dictation. HOD is really full and there is a lot of integrated writing; more than meets the eye. Based on what you have shared I think he will find the work load in Preparing to be quite challenging. My oldest son is NOT resistant to writing, has high comprehension, and enjoys his school work. We started Preparing when he was nearly 9 and he LOVED it. But, he is a SLOW, methodical worker. We HAD to drop back to Bigger and it was a much better decision for him despite his readiness for Preparing in every way. He is MORE than ready for Preparing now as a rising 4th grader. Also, Preparing is a rich, beautiful year. Carrie does a fabulous job weaving CHOW with Grandpa's Box and because you will read with him you can interact with CHOW in a way you feel comfortable with (I remember you not loving CHOW and I understand why).

Another reason I suggest Preparing is that if he's ready for R&S English 3 that's perfect for Preparing. There is also written narration training (it's so cool) as well as practice with so many skills. CTC schedules Write With the Best and I think having English 3 and the writing practice from Preparing under his belt makes CTC a little more attainable. CTC is a meaty year in so many ways. No need to rush in because your kiddo has time to savor Preparing. Preparing is also a really popular and beloved HOD year; not to be missed if you want to use HOD.

I'm struggling with our placement decisions too; this or that or the other thing......

Thank you ladies! These replies have been very helpful. I looked at the placement chart, and writing is his lowest placement on the chart. It did place at Preparing, but I can see how some are saying Bigger. The dictation he has been doing is level 2 of Preparing from the sample given, with a little 3 just starting in the past week. The rest of his abilities are above Preparing, but from what I am reading I definately would not want to go any higher than Preparing.

I guess the real question now would be if he is really ready for Preparing; or if a year in Bigger would give him more solid preperation for Preparing. This is the problem of course with trying to merge into a new program! If it helps any in helping me place him he is finishing up ADV this week with MFW. He has been reading much beyond ADV, and done much more reading than the program. The Apologia Astronomy was harder than ADV science. His writing though has been exactly what MFW has in that program, if anyone knows it well, except that I added R&S for grammar.

Bigger or Preparing?

So if I look at the Writing box for Preparing this is what I see:
* Upper and lower case cursive letters we did with Italic Cursive, book D, that Carrie suggests as one option for Bigger.
*He could copy passages in Italic Cursive
*From the sample given above his current dictation sentences would fall in level 2. A current example would be: Erito is an Eskimo boy. His home is in Greenland. It is very cold there. He lives in an igloo. His father made it out of blocks of ice. Erito's clothes are made of skins of animals. He looks like a little bear. There are no horses where Erito lives. His father owns many dogs. (This is from PLL, and it took us about a week to do it; one or two sentences at a time)
*Begin creative writing ~ I think this would be good for him. He used to love to dictate stories.
*Written narration ~ He has been doing 1 or 2 sentences for his note books in science and ADV.

So it looks to me like he is far enough long for the Preparing placement box. Correct?

Great memory by the way Katarina on my CHOW question! I looked at it at a convention and I still don't like the first 5 chapters or its take on some of the major world religions, including Christianity; but over all I can see why Carrie picked it. I learned a lot reading it for the 30 minutes I spent with it. I remember though you reassuring me that she does a good job of integrating it with Grandpa's Box to give that Biblical narrative with the world history over view. So I do feel more comfortable with the idea of Preparing at this point, then I did.

BTW: I would LOVE to see my ds8 progress as much in writing as people are talking about!

I didn't get a chance to read completely through all of the replies, so if somebody already suggested this then I'm sorry, but someone suggested to me to check out the weekly samples for each of the programs I'm considering. I think that is very helpful because you can see a whole week of what the children will be doing. Good luck! I find it so hard to choose!

Lisa

If it helps you decide, MFW ADV is the same level work as HOD Beyond. Bigger would be the next level up.

PREPARING PREPARING PREPARING!!! You absolutely DON'T want to miss it!! I'm a little opinionated.