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Hi Ladies,

My dd7 is currently finishing Beyond and will be in Bigger next year. She got to 'sample' a CLE Language Arts 2 light unit from a friend. She really liked it & has requested it for next year (instead of R&S 2). I have looked on this board for comparisons of R&S to other grammar courses, but mostly found information regarding FLL & Queens, not CLE. What I'm wondering is whether CLE Language Arts would be equivalent to R&S (right now I'm looking at R&S 2, vs CLE LA 2). I know that CLE has components that we wouldn't use due to them being covered other ways in HOD (spelling, penmanship) I also found out that CLE does introduce sentence diagramming towards the end of CLE LA 2...is that similar to R&S 2?? I'm interested in hearing people's experience who have used CLE & those that have maybe used both CLE & R&S. Thanks.

Pam

I have used CLE LA 3 and R&S Grammar 3, 4, and 5. Both are good solid programs, but I prefer R&S. CLE was too workbookish for me (although you could do it orally), and I felt like it was busy work. I found my son did well each light unit, then quickly forgot what he had learned. On the other hand, with R&S things really stick for both my boys, and when we do grammar it's sweet moments together.

As far as grammar, I believe they are equivalent. Do keep in mind CLE has NO writing in their LA curriculum, so you would have to supplement for that.

I know you are not asking about their math, but I LOVE CLE Math.

Adrienne

We currently use CLE for the opposite reason, dd can't retain R&S because it's so mastery she just ends up tuning out. So CLE is s good alternative that I think is just as good as R&S. We do some of it orally and some of it written as well. I pick and choose. There is spelling in it which is a good addition to dictation, although we find the words too easy for the level. If your child does better with a spiral program CLE is a good alternative to R&S which is mastery.

Thank-you ladies for your replies. Each of your experiences give me things to consider.

At what level does R&S incorporate writing? ..as early as english 2??? How often does R&S cover writing? I'm not able to tell form samples. How neccessary is a structured writing program for 2nd & 3rd grade? HOD appears to incorporate a writing program in CTC... could I wait to cover writing 'til then if my dd would be in that guide for 4th grade?

If we did CLE LA for a year or two, do you think we could then switch over to the same level of R&S if CLE didn't seem to be working?

Thanks for your help.

Pam

This is a good question! I would personally find it difficult to replace all that R & S English covers so well and so thoroughly. I believe the difference is that R & S English approaches the teaching of grammar from the standpoint of teaching it for the purpose of writing well. This is so different from teaching grammar as its own body of knowledge to be learned. There are so many skills that are taught in R & S English that I would not remember to teach if they were not planned in R & S English. They are not "fluff" either, but important skills to learn. They are also taught in a systematic way from year to year, so each year dc practice previous skills, as well as incorporate new skills into their writing. We have found R & S English to partner well with the creative writing and CM LA elements of copywork, dictation, oral narration, and written narration within HOD. R & S English fills a need the other areas don't and keeps in check the balance of LA skills nicely.

The lessons that incorporate writing focused skills begin at the R & S English 3 level. Topics in R & S English 3 such as these show the subtle difference of teaching grammar for the purpose of improving writing: Proofreading for Punctuation, Meeting the Paragraph, Writing Sentences in the Correct Order, Choosing a Good Title, Writing a Story from Pictures, Using Words to Make Pictures, Writing Smoothly, Sharing an Experience, Making Introductions, Using a Telephone, How to Do Something, Writing to Share with Others, and Writing a Poem.

As the levels in R & S English go up, so do the skills. Topics in R & S English 5 such as these show this progression: Writing about a Personal Experience, Using Exact Words, Writing Paragraphs with Unity and Order, Sentence Variety in Paragraphs, Developing Paragraphs by Giving Examples, Developing Paragraphs by Using Steps, Learning to Outline, More about Outlining, Giving Directions Orally, Observing/Listening/and Taking Notes, Making an Outline for a Report, Writing a Report, The Form of a Friendly Letter, Writing an Interesting Friendly Letter, Rhyme ad Rhythm in Poetry, Descriptive Language in Poetry, Telling a Story about a Personal Experience, Writing a Book Report, Writing a Story, Using Conversation to Make Stories Interesting, Writing a Good Title, Using Our Senses in Writing Descriptions, Making Introductions, and Using the Telephone.

I would find it daunting to try to replace all of these skills, or cross-check a different program to see if these skills are truly taught. R & S English teaches them so well and very thoroughly. We are very pleased with the thorough coverage R & S English provides, and with HOD's suggestion of doing the bulk of it orally and saving the important things to write for the writing portions each day, it is not hard to do. Here are a few threads where Carrie mentions R & S English and HOD's reason for choosing it...
viewtopic.php?p=16647#p16647
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9137

Ultimately the decision is up to you, but these are the reasons I enjoy using R & S English. I hope something here helps as you consider your decision.
In Christ,
Julie

I would have to agree with Julie on the writing portion of R&S. I do think it contains better incremental coverage in those basics than I've seen CLE do. I've used CLE off and on, but frankly I haven't found my niche with any program yet.

While we're using CLE...I'm testing it. I bought it used. There's tons in it I skip; spelling (too easy) or cursive practice (Penmanship). I will be trying Climbing to Good English, because it appears to be the closest in goals to R&S than CLE and while mastery, it's workbook form and a little "less" mastery than R&S. It also contains writing that fits more closely to the goals of R&S. If R&S works, I'd use it. Unfortunately I've tried it every year, but dd just doesn't retain it and even my eyes glaze over. I'm thinking a workbook format is best for dd with grammar.

I posted a comparison here.

Hi, I have been pondering R&S and CLE LA as well. We are using CLE LA 1 this year for 1st grade to shore up my dd's phonics. I have really liked the phonics work this year. The rules coverage is very thorough, and the spiraling helps my dd retain the information. My dd seems to be a visual learner and has done better with the workbook format in CLE than with the auditory approach in FLL 1, which we have also tried out this year. That being said, CLE LA feels tedious and too long, even at the first grade level. I'm really on the fence about how to continue and am concerned about the time it will take to do CLE LA alongside HOD in the future. We are definitely going to try R&S 2 next year with Bigger and see if that can be a fit for us. I may continue with CLE LA 2 as well to continue the phonics work, though. We won't hit Bigger until Jan., so I may wait until then to start R&S 2. So what I'm saying is, while we really like the CLE LA, it tends to run too long for us and I'm very willing to try R&S and see if I can't find a way to make it work for my visual learner. I'm thinking maybe just letting her read from the book alongside me would help some. Any suggestions on doing the oral work in R&S with a visual learner would be appreciated! (Not to hijack this thread!)

Kathy

I was looking for that post birchbark - but I couldn't find it! Thanks for finding it and posting it!
In Christ,
Julie

jer2911mom wrote:...I'm thinking maybe just letting her read from the book alongside me would help some. Any suggestions on doing the oral work in R&S with a visual learner would be appreciated! (Not to hijack this thread!)

Kathy...

I let our sons read from their books alongside me as I read from my book, and that really does help. In the younger levels of R & S English (2 and 3), we take turns reading it aloud. I pause at the bolded words, or at the "Remember" boxes, and my ds picks up with the reading. It helps him stay focused and following along, and draws his attention to the bolded and most important parts. He loves to read aloud. so this works well for us. We also use the markerboard to show diagramming sentences. He likes doing it this way, and it is quite visual. I can use different colored dry erase markers to emphasize this or that as well.

For my oldest ds who is doing R & S English 5, we do the oral review questions together, and then we each read the lesson silently from our own books. We then discuss the oral parts together, use a markerboard as needed, and I assign one section or a portion to be written in his composition book. On occasion, my oldest ds has needed index cards with brief notes to help him remember some of the grammatical terms. This has worked well for him being a visual learner. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

Thank-you for the further comparisons of CLE & R&S. Thanks also for the ideas to aid a visual learner with R&S. My dd is a visual learner & I can see some of those things helping her!

My dd really wants something 'independent' & 'schoolish'. Maybe, if we used R&S, I could write her part out on paper like a worksheet?? (just thinking out loud ) I also think she's attracted to the bigger font & lots of 'white space' in CLE & is a bit overwhelmed with R&S 'crowded' lay-out... but maybe she'd get used to that...

Pam

I've been following this thread, enjoying the comparisons made. I'll just jump in here to respond with a few more thoughts!

When we began HOD two years ago, we came over to R&S English as well. We had previously used textbooks and workbooks before this. When my sons did the R&S lessons with me, at the end of the lesson they'd say, "That's it! That's all we have to do! That was actually fun!". Now I don't share this to make R&S English look easy or not rigorous enough. I say it because they have a LOT of rigour all while being very easy to learn from. (And the best fact is it's very Christ-centered!) My children are benefiting and making HUGE improvements in this area of their learning, I believe, from the effectiveness of R&S!

This year, my daughter was having some reading/phonics struggles. I decided to just focus on this area and really hone in on improving her skills in this area. I used CLE Language 1 for her. It did do a nice job of helping her to grow in this area. However, it was extremely repititious and seemed very long for her to do, and then long for me to check everything and work with her to correct any mistakes. We found that later in the year, we were dreading that part of our day. Things have improved and she's finishing out the lessons, but it sure made me glad that we were going to use R&S next year!

I hope you can come to a decision that works well for you and your daughter!

FYI Montanamom - R&S has worksheets you can buy very inexpensively. They don't cover every lesson, but this might fix her worksheet desire.(Link removed per board rules by moderator)

HTH

my3sons wrote:

jer2911mom wrote:...I'm thinking maybe just letting her read from the book alongside me would help some. Any suggestions on doing the oral work in R&S with a visual learner would be appreciated! (Not to hijack this thread!)

Kathy...

I let our sons read from their books alongside me as I read from my book, and that really does help. In the younger levels of R & S English (2 and 3), we take turns reading it aloud. I pause at the bolded words, or at the "Remember" boxes, and my ds picks up with the reading. It helps him stay focused and following along, and draws his attention to the bolded and most important parts. He loves to read aloud. so this works well for us. We also use the markerboard to show diagramming sentences. He likes doing it this way, and it is quite visual. I can use different colored dry erase markers to emphasize this or that as well.

For my oldest ds who is doing R & S English 5, we do the oral review questions together, and then we each read the lesson silently from our own books. We then discuss the oral parts together, use a markerboard as needed, and I assign one section or a portion to be written in his composition book. On occasion, my oldest ds has needed index cards with brief notes to help him remember some of the grammatical terms. This has worked well for him being a visual learner. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

Hi Julie,

Somehow I've missed your reply to my question. Thank you! I am going to keep these tips in mind when we try R&S 2!

Thanks,
Kathy

Glad to help, Kathy! No worries about just seeing it now - I'm on a slow response pattern myself at this time due to much happening - have a good rest of your week!

In Christ,
Julie