Placement Help for 2nd grade

[MomtoH&H]

I am so glad that I have been able to settle on using HOD next year for my 2nd grader. Finding the right curriculum has been so stressful, but once I found HOD I knew it was the right fit for us. I had settled on using Bigger for my daughter next year because she fits there perfectly using the placement chart. Then I joined some facebook groups and noticed that many people seem to use Beyond for 2nd grade and Bigger for 3rd grade. This brings me to my need for help

My daughter is currently in 1st grade in public school. We are planning to take her out at the end of the school year and start 2nd grade at home in the fall, she will be 7. She reads and writes well. For example last week she was home sick and when she started to feel better she wrote biographies about each member of our family. The books she wrote were each about 6 pages long and each page had 3+ sentences on it. She loves to read and can read independently. She does pretty good with spelling as well, but still needs help sounding out some words. I'm not sure what other information would be helpful in trying to find the right placement for her.

She seems to fit into the Bigger placement quite well, but so many have suggested using Beyond that I am not sure what to do.

[raceNzanesmom]

If she places in Bigger then she should be fine. You can always slow down, now or later, if needed.

Welcome to HOD!

[MomtoH&H]

Almost everyone in the Facebook group recommended starting with Beyond so I am wondering what the benefit would be of starting her in Beyond rather than Bigger. I don't have any problem starting with Beyond if that's the best fit, but when I look at the sample lesson plan it seems too easy. I wish I could see a sample lesson plan from a later unit to see how if progresses along.

[MitchellFamily]

We use Bigger for 2nd. My 7.5 year old just started and does fine. I don't think she is advanced, but the biggest change in my opinion would be the amount of writing. Where is you child for reading? If she looks like she can handle the sample 1st week from Bigger, then that's where you start right? The units keep the same sections throughout the book. It's fairly consistent all the way through. The placement chart is thorough and there is an age range there for a reason. Kids are at different levels! We slow down if we need to, but I would also hate to start slow and feel that my child is not challenged if indeed Bigger is the best fit. Maybe you could get someone else's opinion here or call HOD to talk it over more in depth.

[MomtoH&H]

I thought if I posted on here that someone from HOD would help out. Is that not how it works? I have to actually call?

My daughter reads well, I'm not sure what grade level she reads at though, or even how to figure that out. She recently started reading Magic Tree House chapter books, she needs some help occasionally but for the most part she can read them independently. My only concern about putting her in Bigger is her age, she will be just turning 7.

I have also sent 2 emails to HOD asking for help and never got a response. Does anyone know how long it typically takes to get an answer to an email? In one email (sent on 4/26) I asked about using 1B for math with Bigger and how that would work. Since the lesson plans are not written for 1B I wondered how I would know what to do and if it is even possible to purchase 1B instead of the choices that come with Bigger. In my second email (sent on 5/3) I asked if it would be possible to see a sample lesson plan from later on in BLHFHG to get an idea of the difficulty as things progress. I know this is probably a super busy time at HOD with lots of questions and orders, I'm just feeling a little discouraged with not getting any answers.

I'm not only new to HOD, I'm new to homeschooling too, so I'm feeling completely overwhelmed! Thanks to the 2 ladies who took the time to try to help me!!

[LynnH]

Carrie the author and Julie her sister are on here and try to answer questions as they are able, but right now is a crazy time for them with conventions and Carrie is trying to write the new World Geography guide and get things ready to go up on the website. If you call someone will return your call. For placement questions that is probably the best thing to do.

The most important thing with placement is to really look at the placement chart. My understanding is the writing is where there is the most difference between the 2 guides. Here is a quote from Carrie about the difference in writing from Beyond to Bigger.

...As far as choosing between "Beyond.." and "Bigger..." goes, the amount of writing varies quite a bit between Beyond and Bigger. Bigger requires more writing in the areas of a once a week history notebooking assignment, a once a week science experiment sheet and a once a week science notebooking entry, along with once a week copywork of a Bible verse, 1-3 vocabulary cards each week, cursive handwriting practice daily, and daily grammar instruction with written practice. It also provides a choice of spelling or dictation passages...

[MitchellFamily]

Just to pop in again, I think I remember reading on the site that they don't answer placement questions over email because of the amount of details needed. Only phone inquiries.

[MomtoH&H]

Thank you so much for your help!! Everyone is so willing to answer questions and help

[my3sons]

Hello MomtoH&H, and welcome to the HOD Board! The ladies are doing a good job of chatting through this with you, and the information you shared about your dd is so very helpful to us in regard to placement - thanks! I would also be glad to help you out here.

HOD is incredibly flexible because each guide offers several different levels of many skill-based areas. You have done a good job of narrowing the options down to Beyond Little Hearts... and Bigger Hearts... The history, science, Bible, poetry, Storytime read-alouds, and music would probably work well for dd from either guide. What it really comes down to are just a few things, which I'll try to describe here.

First, in regard to reading:
It sounds like your dd is a good reader for her age - hooray! Both Beyond.. and Bigger... offer multiple reading options. Your dd would place in either the "Emerging Reader's Set" (ERS) or "Drawn into the Heart of Reading" (DITHOR). The ERS ranges from Level 1 to Level 4 books, and it has oral comprehension questions based on Bloom's Taxonomy, along with oral narration questions to foster the development of this skill. If your dd has not done comprehension questions or has not had any experience with oral narrations yet, you may want to start her in the middle of the ERS set, around "Buffalo Bill and the Pony Express," as this is a Level 3 book. This would give her good exposure to these skills prior to beginning DITHOR 2/3. If she has had comprehension questions and some experience with oral narrations already, then she could begin with DITHOR 2/3. Either of these options works with either Beyond... or Bigger... So, you are wondering why I listed this as something your decision is based on, I am sure! The reason I mention this is if dd did Bigger... this year, the following year in "Preparing Hearts for His GLory" (PHFHG), she would need to be reading a portion of her history and all of her science. Reading comprehension and narration skills need to be more developed at this point - so, looking ahead, this is something to consider.

Second, in regard to writing/LA:
This is by far the biggest area of difference in Beyond... and Bigger... If you take a minute to read through the writing skills LynnH mentioned in her post that she copied from Carrie's post, you can see the difference. The amount of writing varies, but the level of difficulty does as well. Making notebooking and mapping pages with copywork, drawings, labels, etc. is done often in Bigger Hearts and not done in Beyond. Grammar varies as well. If dd has not had an introduction to grammar, Beyond provides that. Bigger Hearts has daily grammar utilizing R & S English 2. Bigger Hearts also has cursive instruction and vocabulary cards which dc must use contextual clues, a dictionary, copywork, drawing, a sentence of their own using the new word(s), and alphabetizing the words. Beyond Little Hearts... has wonderful instruction and guidance in oral narrations. Bigger Hearts has some guidance, and PHFHG assumes dc know how to orally narrate fairly well. Looking ahead to PHFHG, dd would be doing written narrations, though short ones, about 1-3 sentences, which means dc should be used to orally narration (not pros at it, but used to it - as there is always improvement in oral narration through the years ). For spelling, Beyond includes Spelling List 1, and Spelling List 2 for options, along with the LA plans you can view in the weeklong sample plans on the website (which includes daily writing of the words via markerboard and dc writing sentences with 3 of their spelling words with in the week). Bigger Hearts includes Spelling List 2 (the same Spelling List 2 option as in Beyond) and Dictation Level 2 (which is harder and writing sentences for spelling each day instead of words).

Third, in regard to math:
Beyond has plans for 1A/1B, including amazing hands-on activities. Or, it has a schedule for using 2A/2B, but no hands-on daily activities. Bigger has plans for 2A/2B, including amazing hands-on activities. Or, it has a schedule for using 3A/3B, but no hands-on daily activities (which wouldn't be a big deal as dd wouldn't be doing this level at 7 yo anyway).

These are the major differences to consider. Based on these considerations, I'd love to have you answer these few questions please...
1. Has dd had comprehension questions and some introduction to oral narrations?
2. Has dd had some exposure to grammar, at least some exposure to the basic parts of speech?
3. Which guide does dd seem to fit better in when you look at the writing list for Beyond and Bigger, that LynnH shared?
4. For math, has dd taken the Singapore Placement Test, or not yet? If not yet, she can do so (it's free and can be printed to take at home from their website), following the steps listed at the following link...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13375&p=96931

We are leaving for the Arlington Book Convention tomorrow, but I will try to get back to you as soon as possible. I do take my computer along and try to answer posts when I get a chance, so I'll watch for your response here! This board is full of lovely ladies that enjoy helping, and they too offer such wisdom. I know it can be overwhelming thinking through placement, but it is so worth the time and the effort. We will get this all figured out with you, and then you will be set for a fantastic year of homeschooling with HOD with your precious daughter! Looking forward to getting to know you here - blessings!

In Christ,
Julie

[MelInKansas]

You have great answers here already. I just wanted to say that we have used Bigger for my daughter's 2nd grade year. We didn't start it until October 1 though, and she was 7 3/4 then. Even then, the writing is her big issue and hold back, otherwise she places into Bigger very well. If math is the only area in which your daughter doesn't place into Bigger, then she will do great and you can do any level of math with any of the guides. The math is just scheduled, with extra activities added in for the level that is most common to the guide. You could either buy the Beyond guide just for the math activities (you can resell it after you are done) or buy 1A/1B with the textbook and use the textbook pages/activities to help you teach it. I think the hands-on math activities in Beyond are wonderful, especially if your daughter either doesn't like math or doesn't seem to get it easily (and these are designed for home, not a school environment, very often there is food involved so we would always have our "math snack").

Part of why people probably are suggesting you start with Beyond is that as a just-barely 7 year old, if she went through Bigger this coming school year, Preparing the next year, she will be going up into harder guides with a lot more work, a lot more expected of them, very quickly. But you can always slow it down if need be. Also Bigger is a much longer school day than Beyond, especially at first. It's a lot to require of someone so young, though since she's been in school she's used to it taking 6 hours! Another thing to think about is that since she's not been exposed to this style of curriculum before, it may take her a little time to get used to this style of learning. Unless she's just a natural at it. Narration is a foundational skill to everything the kids learn in HOD. I probably can't explain to you properly what Narration is. Often people suggest starting in a lower guide when switching, especially if the placement is on the lower end of the skills required. This gives the child confidence and allows them to learn the new skills, and you to take whatever time is needed to work on the new skills, without too much frustration. Of course you don't want to place TOO low. You alone know your child best and can seek the Lord to see what He would have you do.

[MomtoH&H]

Thank you so much for your responses! I am so impressed with how friendly and helpful everyone is!!

Here are my answers to the questions Julie asked:

These are the major differences to consider. Based on these considerations, I'd love to have you answer these few questions please...
1. Has dd had comprehension questions and some introduction to oral narrations?
Yes, each week she brings books home from school and part of the assignment is for me to ask her various comprehension questions. As far as oral narrations- I am not completely sure what that is, but I think it is basically retelling the story. If that is what it means, then yes she has done that. She does that with the books she brings home from school for reading assignments as well.
2. Has dd had some exposure to grammar, at least some exposure to the basic parts of speech?
She has had some exposure to grammar- her class has covered basics such as complete sentences vs. fragments, some punctuation, nouns, proper nouns, verbs, adjectives, and contractions.
3. Which guide does dd seem to fit better in when you look at the writing list for Beyond and Bigger, that LynnH shared?
The writing does seem like quite a bit more in Bigger. I know my daughter could handle it, but I don't know how much she would enjoy it. I tried to get her to keep a journal for fun and she hated writing it every day. So, while she could do it, I'm not sure if it would be a fight to get her to do the work. When she wants to write- she will sit and write stories with very detailed sentences, but she has to want to do it or it's a struggle. Also, as far as spelling goes she definitely needs to work on that. That may just be a normal thing at her age though.
4. For math, has dd taken the Singapore Placement Test, or not yet? If not yet, she can do so (it's free and can be printed to take at home from their website), following the steps listed at the following link...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13375&p=96931
I had her take the placement test and she scored 76% on 1B... I believe she is supposed to score 80% to move on to the next level. She actually surprised me with some of the problems she was able to do. She is just starting double digit subtraction at school and has never covered multiplication or division but was still able to figure out those problems. She did get very frustrated while taking the test because she didn't know how to do some problems. I explained it was just to figure out where we start for homeschooling, but she is very much a perfectionist and was not happy that she couldn't figure out all the answers.

Thank you so much for your help so far! I can't wait to see what you suggest

[my3sons]

I'm sorry to just be getting back to you, MomtoH&H, but we are just home from the convention, and my, my, my how things can pile up when I am gone! However, it was a wonderful convention, and it is good to be home - God is so good.

Before I headed to bed, I wanted to check if you'd gotten back to me, and was so glad to see the detailed answers you gave here! That makes it so much easier to help with placement - I appreciate your taking the time to answer so carefully.

From what you have shared, I would place your dd in Beyond Little Hearts..., with a few beef-ups. For reading, I would have dd use the last portion of the Emerging Reader's Set by beginning around "Buffalo Bill..." and moving through the rest of the set. The ERS has excellent oral comprehension questions and leading oral narration questions for dd to answer, which will be good practice prior to starting "Drawn into the Heart of Reading 2/3." Then, around mid-year through Beyond, when dd finishes the ERS, she can begin DITHOR 2/3, using the Level 2 Book Pack, or books of your own choice. This will up her writing as well as her reading mid-year, and she will have had some time to hit her stride with Beyond.

Because of dd's exposure to grammar, I would have dd start R & S English 2, spreading 1 lesson out over 2 days, and having her only write a small portion each day. Doing a good portion of the lessons orally or on markerboard, and reserving about 3 things for her to write would be a good way to move through R & S English 2 with dd.

For spelling, dd can begin with Spelling List 1, using the Beyond Little Hearts... Language Arts box plans. These plans will have her using a study method that will pave the way skill-wise for doing dictation, as well as writing some sentences for her words on one of the days.

For copywork, dd can probably grow into copying all of each week's poem fairly quickly. I'd still start with her copying 1 line of poetry each day, and then move to 2 lines, 3 lines, etc., gradually through the year. Quality is more important than quantity here, so focusing on neat, properly copied poetry (including all capitalization and punctuation) is the goal.

For math, the Singapore website has this to say about placement...
An overall score of 80% and above on a test is a good indicator that the student has the skills to go on to the next level.

I would go ahead and begin with 1B, using Beyond's hands-on math plans, and then mid-year when you finish 1B, I'd get the Bigger Hearts for His Glory manual, and begin 2A with the hands-on plans in Bigger Hearts. Or, you can use the Textbook/Workbook 2A plans in the Appendix of Bigger Hearts, but IMHO, the hands-on plans are better than the textbook, and tend to 'stick' better with dc. I think they are worth it, but you can certainly use the Textbook/Workbook plans if you'd rather or if you need to economize.

I do feel Beyond (with these beefing up ideas) is going to be a wonderful fit for dd! I would not do the writing battle Bigger Hearts... may create with dd, because I do think it will color her attitude toward homeschooling, especially as you mentioned she may have a few perfectionistic tendencies. This could really lead to unneeded frustration for the two of you, and this year should be a great year, not a frustrating one. If you do feel you want to add more writing to Beyond mid-year for dd, you can have her begin to copy her Bible verse each week as well, but I think adding DITHOR 2/3 may be more than enough otherwise.

I am excited for you to begin your homeschooling journey with HOD! It is such a special way to create memories with our dc, and such a blessing to have these days with our dc. Some days seem long, but most days fly by, and have me wondering how in the world I have a ds who I did Beyond with not that many years ago - it seems - getting ready to begin the high school "World Geography" guide next year. Cherish your time in these early years of homeschooling with the younger guides of HOD - they will be worth remembering, and you will one day probably be like me thinking 'where in the world have the last 10 years gone' and 'how in the world do we have a teenager who has loved HOD from the very start''?!? It's a good place to be. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[MomtoH&H]

Julie,

Thank you so much for your response!! That was so kind of you to respond to me when you got back from the convention. Please don't apologize!! I'm sure you are swamped right now. I hope you are feeling rested up today from your travels!

I have a few comments/questions about your suggestions:

I think that doing the Emerging Reader's Set starting in the middle sounds perfect! As far as following the lesson plans- would I start in the middle for that as well? Or will it be more general assignments that I can use with whatever book she is reading? Since I have never used HOD, I'm not sure how everything is laid out and when I look at the sample lesson plans it just says to see the appendix for this part of the lesson.

If I start her in R&S English 2- do I need the Bigger teacher's manual for that? I see on the sample lessons that it tells what to complete each day, so if I don't have the Bigger manual, am I going to know what to do?

For spelling- I am concerned that list 1 will be too easy for my dd. I don't know what the words are, and the only thing I see on the sample is to practice words like "hat." Just as an example, here are some of my dd's recent spelling words from school: mother, stunk, junk, drank, thank, almost, under, paper, behind, marker, sparkle, chainsaw, draw. She does well with spelling, loves practicing her spelling words and always scores 100% on her Friday tests.

As I have looked over the sample plans some more from Bigger for the first week I am thinking that she could handle the writing portion. I see that it is spread out so there isn't too much on any one day. I also noticed that for the history notebooking the assignment is to draw a map- and she LOVES activities like that. As I looked at the science notebooking activity for the week I see that is also something she would really enjoy. I should have looked over the sample plans better before responding. I was thinking it was just a lot of writing words and sentences and copywork, and did not realize it was drawing as well. As I looked more closely I think she would enjoy the work, assuming that it continues with the drawing activities added in.

I had really thought I would go with Beyond, but as I have thought over your suggestions today and started writing my response, I had a thought and would like your advice on it. I thought about buying 1B for math and using it over the summer with my dd. Since she scored 76% I know that a lot of it will be review. Then in the fall I could just use Bigger. I would go with the spelling choice rather than dictation and keep everything else as is. If my dd is having a hard time with the amount of writing I could back off on that a bit or do some of the writing for her. She also loves science and it seems like there is more science activities to do in Bigger. Is there a big difference in the reading materials for history?

What are your thoughts on that? I really don't want to place her in Bigger if it will be too hard for her. But if writing is the only part that might be too much, I think I could make it work.

Thanks again for your time!!

[MomtoH&H]

As I have thought this over and chatted with some of the wonderful HOD moms on Facebook I have decided I should go with Beyond. Now I need to buy it before I have time to change my mind again