As we move into high school, the design of the guides...

[jer2911mom]

As we look at other companies who have gone before us, we desire to take a different path from what is already offered. While I hesitate to mention much in the way of comparison to other companies, since the Sonlight teacher's notes where mentioned earlier in the thread as one ideal, I will share that from our years with Sonlight I found the teacher's notes to include mainly comprehension level questions and word definitions and to be quite opinionated as to the views of the author in the summaries and notes. This meant that I was having to add my own higher level thinking questions and sift through quite a bit of information, with which I often didn't agree, to decide what to share with my child. We desire to stay away from both of those scenarios in our HOD guides as much as possible. Our goals focus on turning children toward God's Word or back toward a variety of textual sources in search of answers. We desire for the kiddos to do the sifting and sorting through the information rather than having the parent be the purveyor of information. In philosophy, we seek a more Charlotte Mason style education, with more thinking and discussing and fewer prescribed answers. I do realize that there is a time for "set" answers and for checking comprehension, and we do both in our guides. However, I also believe that the best preparation for engaging in meaningful dialogue with a child is to spend time with the materials the child is using rather than spending time reading my summaries of the material. With a Charlotte Mason style education of fewer books of a higher quality, it is more manageable to keep on top of a child's readings.

I know not all parents have time to read their kiddos books, yet it is surprising how much you can pick up just through listening to your kiddos' oral narrations, reading their written narrations, reading your kiddos' notebook entries, talking through the questions in the guide about primary source documents or poetry or Bible passages, etc. The guides from CTC - MTMM have much information contained within the teaching in the boxes that goes far beyond the key idea. Our goal at those levels is to teach you how to facilitate learning and to guide your child in learning to think. This is process that goes beyond one right answer and is one you as the parent will discover as you move through our middle guides.

Carrie, thank you for your reply. I wanted to clarify my thoughts about the SL notes. I agree with you that it seems like the further up you look in the SL samples, the more opinionated the notes become. I take issue with that as well and do not want that from HOD. I also agree that SL questions are mostly comprehension questions, and that is not ideal, either. What I do find very helpful as a teacher, though, is having background information on the book -- tidbits about the setting, when it was written, why it was written, any vocabulary that is unique to the book, pictures of some of those unique items, that sort of thing. I understand about turning children to the bible and other sources for answers and I think that is wise. What I see as an issue for me is that I am supposed to do that independent work on my own as well. It would be helpful if the teacher were equipped with that information as much as possible. Reading comprehension is difficult for me and I feel like I need help so I can help my child. I don't want it to be left entirely up to me to understand what it is that is being read and what it is my child is supposed to get from the reading. Sometimes the work that is done in HOD is generic to the books chosen, and that is what I am talking about as far as wanting book-specific help. I realize your time is very limited and this is something that may not be possible right now. I just wanted to put in a request for consideration down the road.

Thanks,
Kathy

[chillin'inandover]

Carrie,
Thank you for the dialogue about what high school format should look like. Just a few points about where I am coming from. I have graduated 2 from high school and it was the best of times and the hardest of times. Often I felt like the Lone Ranger as all my hs buddies stopped hs once kiddos hit high school. I loved teaching high school but only did 2 years as they attended college the last 2 years for PSEO. When visiting a 4 year college they stated that they don't accept college credits completed in high school because they would not be of the caliber of their school if they could be completed by a high schooler. I want to be clear that college shouldn't be expected of all graduates. My dc took courses like choir, orchestra, theatre, and graphic design at ps. A large part of my time was spent as guidance counselor, making sure graduation and college requirements were met, etc. My dd said she would of liked to have more lectures and less independent work. They both said I did an excellent job of preparing them for college life in regards to level of expectations in high school. They felt better prepared than the ps kids.
HS do need encouragement and guidance to stay the course of high school. There are so many variables to consider.

I have more questions than answers or suggestions since I am new to Charlotte Mason having used a traditional textbook, test, and grading curriculum. Will there be tests, grades, and grading? Will there be electives, foreign language, options (college vs tradeschool)? What will the Bible study or Worldview be at this level? (I tried to find something to use and no one had suggestions so I used something too advanced.) Will all the credits or carnegie units be determined? What about transcripts? I only ask these questions as I am just pondering them before responding to what I would like to see for high school.
I believe the best plan would be a DETAILED DAILY SCHEDULE. My high school teaching days were so busy with so many extras (college application, ACT deadlines, grad requirements, commencement) that I had little time to plan what each day would look like and I must confess that kiddos did wait till the last moment to complete some assignments. They amazed me that they did so well in college as their work had to be completed in a timely manner. The college classes did have syllabus with deadlines, reading assignments, how much to complete for assignments by this date. I would not have time to flip through charts, figure out a scedule, look through notes, read summaries etc found in a weekly summary format. PLEASE KEEP THE KEY IDEAS! I am not sure if it would be possible but a teacher guide (small separate guide-34 X4) that could be used during meeting time would be great just not sure if it would be feasible. It would include notes for each area that you go over in meeting time (with hot cocoa of course!). This would include what you as teacher are looking for, grading or testing guidleines of assignment, points to discuss. This is such a needy time for students as they are venturing out into the world. I confess to wanting to keep them just a wee bit longer but knowing that i must prepare them for this BIG TRANSITION. Having a teacher guide would be like a cliff note filled with encouragement and helps! Perhaps the student could have their own guide like the current HOD guide in CTC-MMTM with key ideas, excellent directions, and promoting further independence and quantity/quality of workload.
We have been so blessed by HOD. I am astounded that 1000 hours went into MMTM! High school is so more complex! May God provide wisdom, discretion, and direction as you ponder the plans for high school. Tammy

[momtofive]

I'm absolutely LOVING this thread!

We're completely in love with the layout of the HOD guides and wholeheartedly believe that they should not change in format! The boxes are so easy to use and see what you need to do each day. My son's independence has grown so much since starting HOD! They love the boxes in the daily format and the key ideas. I think for the science experiments, it wouldn't be necessary to put in the key ideas, but for all other areas, we've really enjoyed the connections made through each boxes' lessons and then key ideas.

HOD truly is a very unique program that puts Christ at it's center, and teaches in a way I've not found anywhere else! Part of this unique "flavor" is the guidebook and it's format. Please don't change. . . . . WE LOVE IT!

[chillin'inandover]

Once again I lost my well composed post so my above post is only part of what I remembered. I agree that the guide should be like the CTC to MMTM HOD guides. Perhaps waiting until jr/sr level guide to make any big changes. This would give you time Carrie to ponder what a different format would look like and allow you the time you need (1000 + hours) to do the current high school guide. I love everything about the CTC guide that I am using and I could see it working in high school having graduated some kiddos. The daily detailed open and go format is perfect for the discouraged or enthusiastic hs highschool mom/teacher/guidance counselor/homemaker/pj clad/hot cocoa in hand while just trying to finish the journey. Simple, no flipping, no figuring just enjoying high school is my recommendation. Tammy

[school4princesses]

I believe the best plan would be a DETAILED DAILY SCHEDULE. My high school teaching days were so busy with so many extras (college application, ACT deadlines, grad requirements, commencement) that I had little time to plan what each day would look like and I must confess that kiddos did wait till the last moment to complete some assignments. They amazed me that they did so well in college as their work had to be completed in a timely manner. The college classes did have syllabus with deadlines, reading assignments, how much to complete for assignments by this date. I would not have time to flip through charts, figure out a schedule, look through notes, read summaries etc found in a weekly summary format. PLEASE KEEP THE KEY IDEAS! I am not sure if it would be possible but a teacher guide (small separate guide-34 X4) that could be used during meeting time would be great just not sure if it would be feasible. It would include notes for each area that you go over in meeting time (with hot cocoa of course!). This would include what you as teacher are looking for, grading or testing guidelines of assignment, points to discuss. This is such a needy time for students as they are venturing out into the world. I confess to wanting to keep them just a wee bit longer but knowing that i must prepare them for this BIG TRANSITION. Having a teacher guide would be like a cliff note filled with encouragement and helps! Perhaps the student could have their own guide like the current HOD guide in CTC-MMTM with key ideas, excellent directions, and promoting further independence and quantity/quality of workload.
We have been so blessed by HOD. I am astounded that 1000 hours went into MMTM! High school is so more complex! May God provide wisdom, discretion, and direction as you ponder the plans for high school. Tammy

I agree with this idea, Tammy. If there is a concern over the cost of a separate teacher guide, one idea would be to have the teacher's guide be on a CD as a PDF file. That way the teacher could read it on the computer, or put it on an iPad or other such device. This would make it a bit more cost effective with not having to print it. Obviously, there are some who prefer things printed, so that could be another option for those that prefer it.

I also like the idea that someone else mentioned about the outside resources (like math and Language Arts stuff) being just a small check box for each day. Especially since these are the two areas that tend to get substituted the most. Just a simple reminder to do the next thing is all that is necessary.

Oh - and the hot cocoa is spot on, regardless of what age, guide or climate you live in.

[Mercy]

Tammy, thank u for making it easier for me to post because I can just say ditto!

I was wondering the same thing about credits/transcript...and I likr the idea of a mini planner/grade book with key info on each upcoming week that is for the student and teacher meeting maybe.

Thank u so much for your labor of love Carrie!!

Mercy

[Carrie]

Ladies,

I am really enjoying reading through your thoughts, and I realize it is hard to ponder these questions when I haven't really shared yet how various subjects will be covered within the high school HOD guides. I do understand that this will make a difference in the overall design of the plans.

High school has more stipulations and requirements to consider and this has a definite effect on how various subjects will be handled. I have a pretty good idea overall of what will be contained within the geography guide, and I'll be sharing those peeks in separate posts to come.

As we plan for high school, it is good for you to know that many of the areas we will be scheduling within our guides will already have answer keys and some will have teaching guides as a part of the plans too. I'm thinking especially in the areas of science, math, grammar, literature, Bible, and writing. We will also schedule a history type strand each year (i.e. geography, world, American, government, economics, and possibly even British history). We will include an introductory foreign language option (which you can follow or instead choose your own option), and a box in the plans for foreign language study after the introductory year (which you can choose on your own how to fulfill through the years). Each guide will likely have at least two electives scheduled within the plans (some of which will be considered typical requirements in many states). Each of these will take room in the plans and be a valuable part of the school day.

In looking at the suggestion to make the language arts box smaller, there will be no way to make the language arts box smaller in the plans due to what it will contain. We will actually be scheduling a literature program daily each year, a writing program daily in the coming geography guide (and at least 2-4 times weekly in the coming guides after the geography guide), grammar twice weekly throughout all the high school guides, and studied dictation (for those students who are still working through the last levels). The language arts box will be a big part of the daily plans and will have many important skills wound within it. It will also take a big chunk of time each day to complete as it is such a key area, earning at least 1 credit each of the 4 years of high school and as a key part of the 4x4 plan colleges desire to see from their entering students. Even for students who have no plans for further education beyond high school, the language arts area is vitally important in training students to read and think critically with a Biblical worldview in mind, to write specifically and purposefully, and to apply correct grammar and punctuation skills to help convey their intended meaning clearly through both writing and speaking. If anything, the language arts box will require far more space.

In looking at the myriad of subjects that will be contained with each day of plans, it will be necessary to have one guidebook for both parent and child to function from as we pull resources in from many different places to provide students with a academically sound, purposefully Christ-centered, college preparatory education. If we provide teaching notes in a separate book, it will just muddy the waters by adding one more place you must check, and believe me when I say that there will be enough resources for you to pull out each day without adding one more.

I'll reiterate what I shared earlier in the thread about having two separate books (whether it be a smaller additional book, an e-book, or a bigger book, the same concerns remain)...
In thinking through the possibilities of having both Teacher Guide and student guide, I'll share that the thought is not a new one for us. The main concern that keeps coming to mind with this type of plan is the amount of redundancy that there would be between Teacher Guide and student guide in information. Or, if there was not redundancy, then the problem becomes matching one with the other as you are trying to teach and for me in deciding what information should go where. This is the very reason that well-known publishers like Rod and Staff or BJU Press have gone to having the Teacher's Guide include the reduced student pages right inside the Teacher's Guide, with the Teacher's Notes surrounding the student pages. I have found so often though, even with the Teacher's Guides like this that they contain information I wish the student pages had, as it leaves it up to me to share the information that really the student should just have access to in his/her own book.

Deciding what information to put where becomes a huge part of the planning at the point that there is a separate Teacher's Guide and Student Guide! We went that route with DITHR, so I know the difficulties of writing that type of plan. It worked well for one subject, but for "all" subjects it would be an entirely different matter. Plus, you'd be surprised how many people forego the DITHR Teacher's Guide and try to just use the Student Books alone. That would be a disaster for families in trying to make high school go well! In looking toward high school, we will have also some academic subject areas scheduled that already have Teacher Guide and Student Book (like Rod and Staff, the sciences, math, reading, etc.), so to have our main guide's plans in that format would really add to the confusion more than help at that point.

Perhaps one day, when my kiddos are graduated, I will have time to go back through and ponder more of these options, but for now it is all I can do to write a single guide each year. So, my main question at this point in time remains as to whether we should pursue a weekly grid format with notes to follow the grid each week, or whether we should pursue a daily plan format with plans set up more similarly to the HOD guides like CTC through MTMM.

I am enjoying your thoughts and the dialogue, and I really do appreciate each of you who has taken time to respond! I just know that when we are planning to write a guide that covers much more than typical homeschool high school guides schedule that I have to be realistic as to what is truly possible for me to write well at this point in time.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Mercy]

Carrie,

Given your response (sorry I missed the first one!) I vote with the continued daily plans. I can always buy a weekly planner...thinking of the well-planned high school or something like that to keep the weekly perspective, but I cannot find daily guidance anywhere else!

Thank you again for allowing us to give our input!
Mercy

[kwickimom]

I think that the daily format could be kept but have some assignments that are given on Day 1 and needed completed by Day 4 (or 5 if you are going to a 5 day week). You could start off in the 1st year guide by having an assignment given and then have a daily box "reminder" to work on the assignment and slowly through the years you could phase out the reminder boxes to where the student is learning to break down the assignment on their own to prepare them for college. This would train students to break down a big assignment into smaller chunks and to not procrastinate on them when they get to college. You could even have empty boxes or blank lines within boxes for the student to pencil in how they want to break up their assignment through the week. Just an idea I didnt see thrown in yet

The difference with HOD is that the guides are written for the teacher AND student to use and switching to a weekly grid affects both. I think it would be really hard if you are running multiple guides to have one in a weekly format and one in a daily.

[annaz]

So, my main question at this point in time remains as to whether we should pursue a weekly grid format with notes to follow the grid each week, or whether we should pursue a daily plan format with plans set up more similarly to the HOD guides like CTC through MTMM.

Blessings,
Carrie

I vote for daily plan format.

[Tiffini]

WITHOUT A DOUBT - DAILY!!!!

Can you tell I really mean it??

[jkhamell]

Hi,

We are using HOD for the first time this year. I am using BLHFG, Preparing, and REV to REV. My oldest will begin HS in the fall. We love the daily plans! We have used many other weekly grid programs and programs with extensive choices for mom and extensive teacher notes in the back of each unit. For us it was too much! We love the clarity of the daily plan, it is simple to know where we are and where we are going.

I think this format will serve us fine in HS also. The combination of higher level thinking questions posed by Carrie (which are so much better than other curriculums we have used), primary source documents, and subjects that will include teacher manuals should be enough to help us guide our Highschoolers in developing independent thoughts and putting ideas together! I have loved how I can see the thinking skills develop over the 3 guides we are using this year! I can only imagine what the HS guides have in store. I prefer to have the questions right where my kids are working for the day - it allows for me to always be "prepared" to teach and it helps the kids know what they are shooting for as they read. When I used other "grid" curriculums I often rewrote assignment sheets with further questions to guide their thinking as they read.

The other advantage to the daily plans is the interconnectedness between subjects that occurs. With a grid this was often lost for us. I also prefer all the notes right there - it was always way too cumbersome to have to look elsewhere for the information or questions for the lesson.

I realize that some (including myself) feel that they need more information to teach a subject. But, first and foremost our goal is to teach our children to find that information and share it clearly and concisely with us and others using reliable sources. Therefore we don't need to know "everything" - we just need to know how to find out and present it. I will often scan the topics for the week and if I need to know more - I'll read about it on the internet. The daily plans keep it simple -by not overwhelming us with information- but equipting teachers and students with high level thinking questions to ponder and research.

My students currently use an assignment sheet/planner to organize their day. This allows us to schedule and check off things like piano, co-op class assignments, and anything we are doing that is not part of HOD. They also mark their HOD required boxes for the day on that sheet - that way they can see what their day holds. I think this is an important tool - but probably doesn't need to be part of the curriculum as the daily planner is personal to each person. Developing a system that works is an important part of the time management skill building that we want students to carry into and out of Highschool.

Just my two cents. Thanks for asking. Daily plans are the most successful way for me to facilitate my children's learning. (My preferred method as a classroom teacher too )

Blessings to you Carrie and your family as you begin this next writing project!

Kim

[jkhamell]

I think that the daily format could be kept but have some assignments that are given on Day 1 and needed completed by Day 4 (or 5 if you are going to a 5 day week). You could start off in the 1st year guide by having an assignment given and then have a daily box "reminder" to work on the assignment and slowly through the years you could phase out the reminder boxes to where the student is learning to break down the assignment on their own to prepare them for college. This would train students to break down a big assignment into smaller chunks and to not procrastinate on them when they get to college. You could even have empty boxes or blank lines within boxes for the student to pencil in how they want to break up their assignment through the week. Just an idea I didnt see thrown in yet

The difference with HOD is that the guides are written for the teacher AND student to use and switching to a weekly grid affects both. I think it would be really hard if you are running multiple guides to have one in a weekly format and one in a daily.

Oh my goodness! I didn't read this before I posted. I so agree with the whole thing! Your idea is really nice as we get into the older guides without loosing the uniqueness of the parent/student learning guide! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Kim

[Great2kids]

My vote is to keep the daily plans. I love the format and my kiddos do a great job at following it

[8arrows]

I would definately like everything to be planned out per day. 2 of my students have made the transition to college without any difficulty in this area. I understand the thought process (and see the merit), I just think the guides already teach this in their unique presentation. I think I lean toward continuing with the boxes, but perhaps with more of a bullet point presentation.
..Best Book Ever 105-107
..written narration
..concentrate on character today
The how-tos for the written narration could still be available in the appendix for those who had not grown up on HOD, or you could still do more detailed instructions the first 3-5 weeks and then cut down to the bullet points.

I think I like the idea of sticking to one guide, rather than a teacher and a student guide. I am one of those who might skip the teacher's guide if it were not all together. I will continue to ponder you question. Thank you for asking and listening. You do both so well and promote such gracious interchange. I enjoy this board immensely.