Selecting Program Level

[monki419]

I am interested in possibly switching to the HOD curriculum, but I am wanting a little information about selecting the right program level. My son is 7, but he is very advanced. We ended up taking him out of a Christian school during first grade because he was so bored. He is currently reading at about an 8th-9th grade level, but he is not writing at that level. He is about a year ahead in math, but he is 3-4 years ahead in English and science. I am saying all of this not to brag but just to explain our situation so that others may be able to help me decide which level is best.

I was considering having him start with Creation to Christ, but we have just started learning cursive. Would that cause a major problem? The curriculum we have been using is for gifted kids and uses a lot of writing so the creative writing would not be a problem at all. He hasn't started diagramming sentences, but I think he would easily catch on to that. For the math portion, we can just test to figure out what level to get him, right? Also, would it be possible to use a different math program?

The program we are currently using is very hands-on, and I am feeling very overwhelmed with it. I also feel that it doesn't play to my son's strengths and can be very repetitive with the activities. It looked to me like HOD would be a great option because it seems to have a good balance of teacher interaction and independent work. I do have a question about the curriculum, are there tests? Our current curriculum does not use testing, and my son (believe it or not) loves tests. I think having tests would be a great motivator for him.

Any input would be helpful because I could use the wisdom of those who have gone before me with their homeschooling journey. Thank you!

[Robbi]

I can't answer all your questions about CTC becuz I'm not there yet. But start here for accurate placing. http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

Also, yes you can do whatever math program you wish.

Not sure at the higher levels but I don't think there is any testing in HOD.

[Molly]

I was just thinking about this, and I thought perhaps you could email Mike or Carrie and see what their suggestion is as they know the programme best and most likely have had others in similar circumstances to you.

My personal thoughts would be to put him into Bigger or Preparing with extensions and work at his level for Math and English. Possibly you could add extra science. I don't think I would want a 7 yr old doing CtC due to the content in some of the readings.

[netpea]

I think you really need to take a hard look at the placement chart to see where you believe he falls and talk with Mike and Carrie, like the pp said. At 7, CTC is going to be way too much. My son struggled with it at 11 at he is extremely bright as well. The sheer workload is too much for a 7yo in my opinion. You would be well served with one of the more age appropriate programs and doing grammar, reading, and math at his level (they are independent of the core material). Hang in there, placement takes a bit of thought, but once they are properly placed, HOD is truly a great program.

[monki419]

I have emailed Carrie with my concerns, and I am waiting to hear back from her. Thank you all for your input. I already felt like the workload with the curriculum I have been using was way too much, and I don't want to switch to a new curriculum and have the same problem. Hopefully Carrie can help me find the right fit for him because I think HOD could really work for us if we figure out the right way to do it. Thanks again!

[lissiejo]

I'm sure you'll get great feedback from Carrie, but I thought I'd mention our experience. My daughter just turned 7 in August and is using Bigger at full speed without extensions. We also pulled her out of Christian school last year when she was in 1st grade for several reasons, but one was the numerous coloring pages she was doing because she always finished before everyone else and had already read all the books in the room. She is reading at an extremely high level although she is at grade level for math. She is being very much challenged in Bigger, which is a huge stepping stone to preparing students for later guides. Math is easy to adjust to whatever grade level you need.

The later guides are intended to be more independent as well. Bigger helps that transition.

Enjoy your journey!

[pjdobro]

I wouldn't put a 7 year old in CTC because of content, the workload, and the amount of physical writing that is involved. I think it would really overwhelm even the brightest of young children. I'm thinking that since he is reading at such a high level, you could always add in the extension readings for Bigger or Preparing. Agreeing with the other posters too that you can easily do a lower program and do the grammar and math at his level. Bigger is a wonderful program with lots of age appropriate activities which your ds would probably enjoy. You could always challenge him more with the extra reading assignments having him do the suggested follow-up activities and with higher math. The physical writing would probably be more appropriate to his level especially since he is just learning cursive. He could also dig deeper in the science topics and also add the additional science book in the extension if you felt he needed more in that area. We loved Bigger here because of the wonderful character building that is interwoven and enjoyed looking at American History through the lives of some of our founding fathers. Preparing is great too and really allows a bigger picture of history. Content wise, you would have to decide if your ds would be ready for it. It does discuss some of the other religions of the world. It is all done in the context of one God and Christianity, but I felt it was nice waiting until a later age to explore these topics because my dc already had a firm grounding in Christ at that time. After looking at the placement chart, let us know where he places on everything and that will help us offer up more suggestions.

I think Singapore math is a great choice for a gifted child because it doesn't have a lot of meaningless repetition. It is big on the concepts and using mental strategies to solve the problems not just giving the child a lot of the same kind of problem to solve. It is short so the work in it doesn't overwhelm our day yet we are progressing along in math at a great pace. Here is a link to the Singapore placement tests: http://www.singaporemath.com/Placement_Test_s/86.htm

[monki419]

I had already looked at the placement chart before posting this topic, and he fits in the Creation to Christ in everything except the cursive handwriting and diagramming sentences. That was why I wanted to get opinions from those who had used the curriculum. I am not someone who wants to push my child beyond his limits because that doesn't help anybody. My concern is making sure that he is not bored and is challenged while still getting to be a 7-year-old boy. HOD looks like an excellent program for him because of all the personalization since he doesn't fall into the normal parameters. I do appreciate everyone's feedback. I was afraid to buy one curriculum only to find out that it doesn't fit, and we really don't have the money to waste. I'm awaiting Carrie's response so we can make a decision. Thanks!

[pjdobro]

I'm sorry I didn't understand that you had already looked at the placement chart. It is a challenge with a gifted child to find the right balance that keeps him challenged without being overwhelmed with too much information or work. I think you are right that HOD can really fulfill those needs since it is challenging but in bite sized pieces. It also doesn't have the repetition of useless, tedious tasks that can really bog down the learning process. All of the activities in HOD serve a purpose so you can feel confident that your ds's time will be well spent.

We are currently doing CTC and have done LHFHG, Beyond, Bigger, and Preparing. In all of these guides, there aren't any tests. HOD uses a more Charlotte Mason philosophy so the "testing" is done through narration. That is the way that children show their knowledge of the material. It's kind of like an essay test but more thorough and from the child's perspective and done orally in the early years. It shows how they connected with the material, and what they are taking away from it. It's actually much more telling of the understanding of the material than any test could ever be. Rod and Staff does offer a test booklet that can be used with their books and a few of the books along the way offer questions or quizzes at the end of chapters. These usually aren't used, but if you felt that your ds would enjoy doing them, you could incorporate them. Singapore has review pages in the text that could be used more as tests.

I am wondering if your ds has the physical writing skills of an older dc. I don't think the fact that he is just learning cursive is a problem with using a higher program like CTC because he could always do the activities that call for cursive in manuscript. However, I do think that the physical aspects of writing is a consideration. Each level up requires a good deal more writing. It could be tiring for a younger dc. Here is an old thread that compares the amount of writing between Bigger and Preparing: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3602 CTC is going to be a step up from that as far as the writing. You can see my current post that my dc are still struggling a bit with the physical act of writing in CTC.

Another consideration beyond the academics is just general amount of time spent on school and attention span. It's nice in those younger years to allow dc a lot of time to explore and have creative play time. One of the things that I have really appreciated about HOD through the years is that the program is developmentally appropriate both in activities involved in the guides but also in the time that it requires dc to be attentive. Each program along the way requires more time which is developmentally appropriate. For instance Bigger takes 2 1/2 to 3 hours, Preparing 3 1/2 to 4, and CTC 4 to 4 1/2. It's wonderful too that the programs are short enough that you can easily add in extra reading or other activities to enrich the learning. I love hearing my dc in creative play later in the day that relates to what we have been learning. I know that they are taking the learning to heart and really internalizing it.

I happened to think when I was thinking of your situation that your ds might enjoy reading some of the Childhood of Famous Americans series about some other children who were gifted just like he is. A few of them are used in the HOD programs. I think the Edison one is used in Bigger and the Einstein one in Preparing. If you bypass those programs, you might want to have your ds read those for fun. I am sure a lot of the others would be great as well. My ds is going to read the one about Henry Ford soon.

Any way that is just some food for thought as I was thinking about your situation. I will be anxious to hear how Carrie directs you.

[Carrie]

The ladies have done a great job of helping you talk through your possible options. It can be so hard to place children even with the help of the placement chart. That is because there is so much more to being able to handle a guide than what can be categorized on a chart! The chart just gives us some common ground as to where to begin. I agree with the previous posters that we need to specifically know more about your child's writing abilities and his ability to read and follow written directions on his own before we can give accurate placement advice.

Also, in thinking through the skills needed for CTC, in order to provide a fuller picture beyond the placement chart, it may help to ponder the following questions: Does your son easily write at least several paragraphs or more on his own with correct spelling, capitalization, and punctuation? Can he do this type of writing in multiple subjects a day without fatigue? Can he read and follow lengthy written directions in paragraph form on his own without needing much help from someone else? Is he familiar with a Charlotte-Mason style education and already a good narrator both in oral and in written form? Has he been responsible for reading his own history and science books prior to this point and have they been very advanced? Has he had a formal introduction to poetry with things like alliteration, assonance, consonance, stanzas, rhyming patterns, etc.? Is he comfortable diagramming sentences and has he been introduced to all of the parts of speech? Can he copy easily and extensively with very few errors and with writing befitting a 4th or 5th grader? Has he had a formal literature study with focus on character, plot, setting, mood, compare/contrast, theme, moral, rising action, voice, cause/effect, problem/solution etc.? Is he familiar with studied dictation or has he done multiple sentence dictation prior to this point? Has he completed science lab forms utilizing the scientific method and could he do so on his own? Has he ever done any notebooking? Is he a good drawer and can he follow difficult step-by-step drawing activities? Has he done any map drawing? Can he utilize a blank page well?

I only share these questions to get you thinking about how writing skills, grammar skills, and reading written directions will be a part of almost every subject at the CTC level. CTC has half of the subjects each day that are meant to be done on the child's own, without the parent having to introduce the directions first. This is why we ask about the particular skills I listed above. I don't expect you in any way to answer all of the questions I asked as that was not my purpose in asking them. I list them instead to show that the overall rigor of a guide like CTC is well beyond the grasp of even an extremely bright 7 year old (especially when taking into account the maturity of content within CTC). My oldest son was one of those kiddos much like yours that I found reading Moby Dick unabridged when he was 7, yet I wouldn't have wanted him in CTC as a 7 year old.

With this in mind, I'd lean toward Bigger with extensions or possibly Preparing, depending on when your son will actually turn 8. You are so right that it is important to challenge him will still allowing him to be 7. It's also important to note that finding the right placement means that a child is challenged part of the day, is comfortable part of the day, and yet also thinks some things are easy. A balance is so important! I think with bright learners, we feel like we owe it to them to challenge them because they seem to thrive on it at first. However, it is wise to know that the eagerness wears off sooner than we as parents anticipate, and we can be left with a bright child who is burned out on school from too much challenge too young.

So, in order to advise you better, I only need to know a couple of things. First, about how much writing does your son do daily? Does writing come easily to him with few mistakes in grammar, spelling, and punctuation? Second, how well does he do when following multiple step written instructions? Third, how much grammar instruction has he had? Last, when will your son will turn 8? These keys should really help us understand your son better.

I look forward to hearing back from you. It is a fine line in finding the right placement without shooting too high or too low. It is even more difficult because the format of the guides makes the activities and subjects look simpler than they actually are!

Blessings,
Carrie

[monki419]

Thank you ladies so much for all the help!

Carrie, to answer your questions, he is very independent in his reading, including history and science, and can read large amounts at a very advanced level and does so independently, but he cannot write at that same level. He can write a paragraph easily without grammatical or spelling errors and has a good understanding of literature elements like character, plot, setting, etc. We have not studied poetry terms extensively yet. Writing multiple paragraphs for multiple subjects every day would be tiring for him. We have not diagrammed sentences, but he is familiar with the major parts of speech with the exception of prepositions because we have not studied them yet. I think he could pick up diagramming very quickly because he enjoys talking about parts of speech and that kind of learning comes naturally for him. We have been using Moving Beyond the Page and have not used a Charlotte-Mason style of education before so I am not sure if I understand exactly what you mean by narrating. I am not sure if that would be more like memorizing and repeating or if it would be more like retelling in his own words. He is very good at the latter and can do well at memorizing, although I haven't had him memorizing long sections of anything, mostly just memory verses. He is familiar with the scientific method and could fill out the forms on his own, mostly because he absolutely loves science. He probably could not follow lengthy written directions on his own without getting distracted. He will be turning 8 in April.

I really appreciate all the help. It is hard to find the right placement for him because he is intellectually advanced but he is still very much a 7-year-old boy. I was tested as gifted as a child, and I saw so many parents of my peers trying to push their kids too far and make them into little adults, and it crushed them. I am very thankful that my parents were not like that. I also have no desire to put undue pressure on him. One of the big reasons that I want to switch curriculum is because there seemed to be way too much work for a 7 year old. He could understand the work, but he would have to spend all day doing things that I felt didn't actually enhance his learning. I don't want to leave that curriculum and pick the wrong level in this one and make his workload too heavy. On the other side, I don't want him to be bored and lose his love of learning.

pjdobro, thank you for all of the information. I found it especially helpful. Reading that helped me understand so much more what was required, not just mentally but also time-wise, for the different levels. I agree with you about reading about the childhood of famous Americans. Last year, we studied Edison and read not only about his inventions but also how he grew up, and he reminded me so much of my son! My son wants to be an inventor so he totally loved it.

You ladies are a Godsend!

[Robbi]

I'll let the experts give you more placement advice but I did remember this old post about narration. It might help you understand that better. It is retelling of the story not memorizing.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8918

[monki419]

Thank you, Robbi! That really helps. After reading the description of narration, I would say that he is excellent at narration. That is something we do regularly. I almost always have him tell me about what he read or have him tell me back in his words about something that I taught him. I find that to be one of the best ways to solidify what he is learning and helps me know that he has really gotten it. I'm actually very happy to know that that would be part of this curriculum.

[tiffanieh]

I just wanted to quickly reply, reading your description, and Carrie's suggestions....I think Preparing would be a GREAT happy medium. I think you would find CtC very much in rigor like the curriculum you are currently using and would burn your son out. My two boys (just 9 and almost 11) are doing Preparing and it is a GREAT guide, gentle in its increase in writing, yet challenging and engaging. I'd certainly stop there and not look further at CtC.

[Carrie]

monki419,

Thanks so much for taking time to reply. It really helps to know more about your son as we work to find the right fit for him. From what you've shared I do think it possible that your son could use and enjoy Preparing this year. My hesitation in placing him in Preparing lies as we look down the road to the year after Preparing. I have to wonder whether we would really want him doing CTC as an 8 year old. As you read through the questions I've listed in my previous post, only you can know whether you would want your 8 year old being required to do the things that I mentioned are necessary for CTC. Another question that I have in my own mind is that even if he can handle the workload in CTC at age 8, should he have to handle it? Will it truly benefit him more in the long haul to have to work long and hard, even though school should come easily to him?

Another thought I had wondered about was whether he has had much in the way of American history at this point? Bigger Hearts with extensions is our last big shot at American history until your son gets to Revival to Revolution and Missions to Modern Marvels. This is an important thought to consider, as many children love the content in an American history study and Bigger does this study biographically making it all the more interesting to a 7 year old boy. One other thing to weigh is that with a somewhat lighter school schedule, you would be more free to pursue other topics that interest your son as well. That is always a strong incentive for kiddos who are intrigued by many new things.

With his long-term road in mind, I'd be inclined to recommend Bigger with extensions at this point. If you went this route, you would want the Extension Pack as well, however you may need to look over the books prior to handing them to your son, as they were not selected with a 7 year old audience in mind. Instead, they were chosen for a 4th and 5th grade audience, so his maturity will come into play here. I would place him in Rod and Staff English 3 for grammar (even though English 2 is scheduled in Bigger), just having him do a lesson a day. English 3 is where the students begin diagramming sentences. If your son has never done any studied dictation, he could use the dictation passages in the Appendix of Bigger. It is likely if he is a natural speller that he will rarely miss anything. If preferred, you could use your own spelling program, however studied dictation is definitely something you will want to consider doing with him in the future.

I'd also look at Singapore math and give him the placement test to see where he places. When he takes the placement test be sure not to help or guide him in any way, or it will alter the results. Simply give him the test beginning with Singapore U.S. Edition 2B and see how he does. Singapore often requires even kiddos who are strong in math to back up a semester or more in their placement, simply because Singapore has a different scope and sequence and a different way of looking at math concepts.

There is plenty of writing within Bigger Hearts overall if you make sure to require all that is outlined in the plans. If you get going and feel that you desire even more writing than what you find in the curriculum, you could always consider adding Igniting Your Writing Vol. I (which we carry in our online store). It is typically for grades 4 on up. As far as reading goes, you could choose between Drawn into the Heart of Reading Level 2/3 Student Book and Level 4/5 Student Book, depending on how much writing you desire for him to do. If you desire more of a challenge in the writing area, select Level 4/5. Each level of Drawn into the Heart of Reading works with any books you choose. So, you will be able to choose the books your son will read along with it. If you desire for us to choose the books your son will read, then you may wish to look at the Book Packs. Perhaps the Level 4/5 Boy Pack would be appropriate, depending on the content. I fear Level 5/6 Boy Pack will get into content that you would rather wait a bit for your second grader to read, but you'll be able to tell upon closer inspection.

If you do instead decide that Preparing is a better fit for your son, then my recommendations for the 3R's would still stay as outlined above.

I will share that with a Charlotte Mason style education the emphasis is on fewer books of a higher quality read more slowly over time, so this will likely be a shift from anything your son has had prior to this point. I know it was a shift for mine! There will be small amounts of reading each day in a variety of subjects to allow the child to really live with a book over time, rather than plowing through a book as quickly as possible. Slower, more thoughtful reading is a skill that is also developed through practice. So, for example at our house, for my avid reading boys... I allow them to devour as many books as they desire in their free-time, but during school I expect them to follow the pacing in the guide. This is because these two ways of reading address two different types of skills. If I allowed my sons to read through their school books as quickly as they'd like, they'd be done in no time. However, all of the connections and pondering and discussing and ruminating would have been missed. So once you make a decision on which guide to use, when your books arrive, you may have to be diligent not to allow your son to sneak off and devour the books before your school year even gets underway!

Another thing to bear in mind is that in science there is quite a bit of writing each week, which is as much or more of the focus than the material being read. This is because the skills honed in notebooking and recording experiments or discussing the scientific method or narrating are all important skills needed for future science learning. So, these are truly a big part of the work in Bigger's and Preparing's science. If you desire to add additional science reading in your son's free time that can be easily done, however I'd encourage you not to move too quickly through the science in the guide as there are many skills he will need wound within its pacing.

Last, I'll mention that from my own growing up years, my mother words about boredom always ring in my head whenever I hear the word 'bored'. She always said that boredom was a choice. If my sisters and I ever said the word "bored" we were given a task to do (like cleaning the bathroom or pulling weeds) that reminded us that we weren't really that bored after all. I share this to let you know that in my 11 years as a classroom teacher prior to the last 12 years of homeschooling my own sons, I have had the privilege to work with many amazingly intellectual kiddos. It is a fine line between the fanning the flame of their interests and over-catering to their whims. If you find yourself altering the plans to avoid complaints of boredom whenever they arise, you will soon find your child is running your day and you are frenzied by trying to find new and exciting ways to keep his interest. This is actually true for all kiddos no matter their intellectual capacity. If you ban the word 'bored' from being allowed at your house, you will already go a long way toward a better dialogue between teacher and child for the long haul.

I pray you will find the fit you are seeking. You know your child far better than I do, so you will be the best final judge as to what will suit him best. If you do decide on Preparing rather than Bigger Hearts, you will likely enjoy the intellectual stimulation it offers. Just be sure to ponder CTC then too to weigh carefully what his path will be the following year.

Blessings,
Carrie