Guides taking much longer than Carrie and Julie's times

[daybreaking]

Help! No matter how hard I try, I am not able to match the time frames that Carrie and Julie have shared for when they do the guides with their own children. I'm not talking about dawdling on my ds's part, but rather the length of time it takes even when he is being diligent. To give you a few examples:

The listed time for R&S English is 10-15 minutes total. We've done both R&S English 2 and 3 and I don't think we've ever been able to fit that time frame. Even though I do follow the 2/3 oral, 1/3 written suggestion, it takes us at least 10-15 minutes just to do the oral part and then it takes my ds about 15 minutes to do his part, sometimes longer if there's a lot of writing. Last year, the Beyond poetry box was slated to take 5-10 minutes. It regularly took my ds 15 minutes to do the copywork (one stanza) and another 30-45 minutes to do the drawing. For Bigger, the rotating box is listed as taking 15 minutes (longer on art days). It takes my ds at least 15 minutes just to do one vocabulary card. The Reading about History box is slated to take 8-10 minutes, but it often takes us more, although this might be because my ds likes to discuss things; however, when he has notebooking to do, it can easily take him 30 or more minutes. For science, 15 minutes is sufficient for the reading, but if there is notebooking or an experiment w/a write-up, it has sometimes taken him 45 minutes. The art projects can take him an hour. If I try to encourage my ds to work faster, it leads to frustration and sometimes tears on his part and leaves me feeling like I'm rushing all day, to fit everything into the time frame. The work he produces is well done and I don't want him to feel like he's doing a sloppy job just to finish sooner, yet our day ends up being much longer as a result of the extra time here and there. I'm really curious as to how folks are able to complete each box in so much less time that we seem to be able to do.

[jer2911mom]

Hugs! I haven't done Bigger, so I can't offer encouragement there. It sounds like anything involving writing or art is taking longer. I wonder if it is just a matter of time for your son's writing speed to be able to increase? One suggestion I have regarding art is to push it to the end of the day. My dd loves to be creative and take her time with anything art or drawing-related, so I let her do those things at the end of the day so she doesn't feel rushed and can take as much time as she wants to on them, and I'm not waiting on her to finish. Also, regarding the copywork in Beyond, we just started with one line a day instead of an entire stanza, and then increased it to two. You could just set a timer for copywork and stop when the timer goes off.

HTH,
Kathy

[John'smom]

One suggestion for the poem. I had both my dc set their timers for 5 minutes. I would then check their work and they would correct any mistakes/sloppiness for the last 2 min. My dc were 9 and 7 when they did Bigger. Ds was able to get the the whole poem written every week. Dd was too most weeks.

[mom23]

I also use a timer for copywork-setting it for 5 mins for ds, and then we go on to the next thing. We don't copy an entire poem every week, but that's okay, I'm more interested that he's making progress.

I don't know...my gut instict from what you've described is just that maybe your ds needs to "grow into" the guide...have you considered either slowing down to half pace, or modifying some of the boxes that are really handwriting-intensive? It just seems that a really long day like that could get really discouraging for your ds (and yourself, too!) Maybe you could look for areas that you could do the writing parts for him-when working on handwriting is not the goal (like R&S, science experiment pages, or vocab?) Actually, with R&S I start out doing most all of it orally and then work into adding small writing assigments from it when either the lesson prohibits oral completion or they are ready for more handwriting on a regular basis. With things like experiment pages or vocab, start by having him do the work orally, and you write down what he says, then work toward you writing it either on a paper for him to copy directly underneath each line, or on a whiteboard for him to copy down onto paper.

For the art projects and notebooking-try setting a timer again for whatever time you have allotted-15 or 2o mins?-then set the project aside for him to work on after school is over. For my really artsy kid-she loves taking plenty of time to make it just perfect and rushing her makes her frustrated. She enjoys the work enough that it doesn't feel to her like an extension of "school"-more like fun!-when I ask her to go back and finish that drawing later.

Where are you in the bigger guide? If you're early in it, my guess is that he will "grow" into it-and before you get to the end he'll be able to handle things more easily and quickly. Hang in there! I know it's frustrating for both of you, but you'll figure it out .

[countrymom]

We are on unit 14 in Bigger and we went 1/2 speed through unit 10 (did math, reading, and copywork everyday). I don't know the age of your son, but I can definitely second the other poster that beginning 1/2 speed might be a good idea. My son had to grow into the guide and is doing fine now at full-speed, but needed the 20 weeks of 1/2 speed to get into it. I do most of the English oral at this point, and just do a little writing here and there. I will continue to add as time goes on until we get to 2/3 - 1/3. If the poem is long I don't have him finish it. I just want him doing copywork x amount of time per day. Many of the poems are short enough that he finishes, but I think the main idea is to do copywork everyday and gradually increase the amount. I have also found that doing the artwork at the end is the best for us. I also usually do the science experiment at the end. I also have him do the copywork for the notebooking (usually science, such as the text) as a part of his copywork session and when we get to the notebooking box, he is ready to go with the rest. Vocabulary day is a longer day for us. I usually don't do more than 2 cards. We also just started DITHOR and I am doing it orally right now since my son is younger, so that is another thought.

[blessedmomof4]

Agreeing with what everyone has said, it seems your son needs growing time as far as his writing is concerned, pretty typical at this age, especially for boys. For copywork, the goal is quality, not quantity, so definitely cut back on that and let the timer be your friend-however much he can copy neatly in 5 or 10 minutes, that should be it for the day. It doesn't need to be a whole stanza. If you have him doing a Cursive program in Bigger, skip the copywork altogether, as you only need to do one or the other for handwriting practice. For Rod and Staff, I would suggest letting him use a white board rather than paper for part of his 1/3 written portion. For notebooking and lab write-ups, you could have him dictate to you while you write for him in the book. Alternatively, you could have him dictate to you, you write it on the board, and then let him copy. Getting your thoughts together, spelling, and writing them them down is a complex process that can take some growing into. Are you doing DITHOR? Try the same idea as for notebooking. If he can only do one vocabulary card in 15 minutes, that is ok for now-the directions allow for one to three cards. He can build up to doing more than one card over time. Lastly, you'll be surprised how much time "bunny trails" can add to the day. If your discussions threaten to get lengthy, jot down some of his and your thoughts and revisit them at a later time, after school, so you can keep things moving. Use the timer to get all the sections of the day under control. Hope that helps!

[daybreaking]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond. I appreciate all of your insight! To answer a few questions, we did Beyond a year ago and this past year did Bigger. Due to a few detours I took (second guessing my curriculum decisions, mainly because of the time Bigger was taking), we're only halfway through Bigger, rather than finished with it. We're continuing through the summer and should be finishing up in the fall. Unfortunately, my ds is on the older end of the guide and will be turning 10 (going into 4th grade) in August, so I don't have a lot of wiggle room for going more slowly through the guide. I guess I worry, too, about moving backwards for two reasons. First, he's been able to do all of the work, and well, just more slowly than the time recommendations by Carrie and Julie. Secondly, he's very bright (post high school level reading comprehension & 99th percentile composite score on his standardized testing), so I wonder about the impact of him being in a guide below his age range. I know a few years ago, he would have been brought to tears by so much writing and work, but he's matured and now enjoys the work, doing extremely well with it, albeit slowly. Part of it is that he is meticulous, putting a lot of thought into his work. For example, when he draws a picture for a vocabulary word, he doesn't just do a quick sketch, he carefully draws the picture, adding many details and then he takes colored pencils and colors it carefully. Another part is that things just take him awhile. When I give him a vocabulary word to look up in the dictionary, it can take him over five minutes to find the word. I could look it up for him in a few seconds, but then he would miss the opportunity to work on dictionary skills and alphabetizing. I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place. I asked him the other day what he thought of the notebooking/drawing/writing work and he exclaimed, "I love this!" I'm afraid if I tell him I'm going to start scribing and doing the notebooking as he dictates, that he might be crushed. For instance, we use a different math program that requires a lot of copying; this past year, I had suggested I write out the math problems for him and he just solve them. He dissolved into tears, insisting he wanted to do all the copying and shared that he felt he was only doing half his work if I helped. He wants to do all of the work and yet neither of us like such a long day. Several times I've considered dropping the Bigger activities and just snuggling on the couch with him, doing all of the reading and discussions and yet, I can tell how the notebooking and activities really help him focus on details and make connections.

'Sorry for rambling , I just thought a bit more information might be helpful. Thank you!

[mom23]

I think I still would slow down. Preparing has a lot more writing in it-I wouldn't recommend rushing there if Bigger is still bogging him down. My dd is doing Preparing as a 5th grader-I know lots of other families do that, too. Don't hesitate to look at Bigger for part or all of his 4th grade year. If you can really focus on getting him comfortable with all of the writing in Bigger for this year, so that your times are closer in to that target range you're going to get much more enjoyment and learning out of Preparing and on up. You really want to get him comfortable with Bigger at full speed and where your times are shorter before you think about moving up to the next guide.

[MomtoJGJE]

What if you saved all the things he's so meticulous about till last. Like do one or two vocab cards, but then once he's found the word and defined it, then put it away and he can do it for 'homework'. I'm guessing the notebooking is also taking more time with the drawing? If so, let him do the copywork, and then the drawing as homework? Or maybe all of it for homework. I know my oldest when she was in Bigger, the notebooking was pretty much independent work... I guess it would be semi-ind because I'd read it all and make sure she understood the instructions.

Another thing you could do is set the timer for each box for however long you want it to take and then once you reach that time limit, put whatever is unfinished in a separate pile, and then move on to the next box. You could either choose to do the unfinished work the next day first thing or have him do it as homework. At 10, if I were using Bigger, I'd probably require it as homework, and then he'd be correcting anything necessary the next morning first thing... maybe have a block of 15-20 minutes where he just corrected his work.

Honestly, even on days my kids want to get into a topic and discuss it more, we wait until school time is over. I don't like to dilly dally around discussing things and moving on to rabbit trails during school. I have other people that need my attention too. The only one I do that with is my 3yo, and we are just doing LHTH for fun this year, so everyone else is done with school before she does hers.

Oh, one other question... do you have him reading his own history or science? I know it's not required, but CM says that a child of 9 who is capable should be reading their own history. We are slowly working that way with my oldest even though we are just in Preparing. I cannot tell you how much time it has taken away from ME (so I can focus on training my DD2 to be more ind) even though it has added about 10 minutes to our school day. The positive (other than my time) is that she is retaining SO MUCH MORE by reading it herself. In Bigger I'd probably have them do science instead of history because the history has so much different language.

[John'smom]

Your ds sounds like a perfectionist to me. Doesn't sound like the work is beyond him or anything. My dd and ds are in the same guide. My ds finishes quicker. He's 2 years older. Dd doesn't write as fast, but she writes neater (ds isn't sloppy though), and is more detailed in her drawings. I think to some extent the times are guidelines. From looking in the weekly check-ins there's some kiddos whose handwriting is super neat, and others who are pretty sloppy IMHO. Obviously it sounds like your ds is taking his time and doing things well. The only downfall to that is it's going to take him longer. KWIM? I just wanted to encourage you!!!

[daybreaking]

I think I still would slow down. Preparing has a lot more writing in it-I wouldn't recommend rushing there if Bigger is still bogging him down. My dd is doing Preparing as a 5th grader-I know lots of other families do that, too. Don't hesitate to look at Bigger for part or all of his 4th grade year. If you can really focus on getting him comfortable with all of the writing in Bigger for this year, so that your times are closer in to that target range you're going to get much more enjoyment and learning out of Preparing and on up. You really want to get him comfortable with Bigger at full speed and where your times are shorter before you think about moving up to the next guide.

Good food for thought, here. I'm going to ponder your post a bit. Thank you.

[daybreaking]

Oh, one other question... do you have him reading his own history or science?

He's read the science on his own since the beginning of Bigger. He could read the history on his own, as he often initiates reading other history books indpendently, but so far I've continued reading it for the together time and so I can learn with him. (It's amazing all I am learning that I never remember learning before!!) Thank you for your other thoughts, too. They were helpful.

[daybreaking]

Your ds sounds like a perfectionist to me.

Oh, my, yes, he is definitely a perfectionist! (I'll give you one guess where he got that from. )

Doesn't sound like the work is beyond him or anything ... Obviously it sounds like your ds is taking his time and doing things well. The only downfall to that is it's going to take him longer. KWIM? I just wanted to encourage you!!!

Thank you for this! You brought a smile to my face.

[blessedmomof4]

Thanks for sharing more about your son-sounds like you taking over some of the writing isn't going to work in his case-but I still also think you could slow down a little without losing anything-even if you take a bit longer to finish Bigger, he will still be in the age range of the next guide

[OneFunSon]

The other ladies have been much more helpful than I can be, but I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone!

We have done 3 guides so far, moving into MM2M, and we still do not get most of the boxes done in the "allotted" times. I have not really figured out all the reasons why yet and plan to work on it much more this year. I don't think that my son is a perfectionist, but he does very nice work and I have not wanted to discourage that so I have been hesitant to push him too hard timewise. Also, I am not sure if the times include checking and correcting work, particularly math and written work, but for us that definitely adds more time than is suggested for the boxes.

At the end of a long day I just try to remember that it is a blessing that he cares so much about his work as I know it could be the opposite!

Peace & Joy,
Karen