Having trouble placing my children...

[legacyacademy]

I'm trying to place my 9yo son, 8yo son, 7yo daughter, and possibly my 5yo daughter. They all just turned their ages in Dec/Jan. My other children are a 2.5yo daughter and one due in late June.

Our past includes using BF Early American 2 years ago, and then moving to VP and some Ambleside Online. We really love Ambleside Online. My problem lies in trying to pull it all together with copywork, narration, etc.

Here is some info about my children and my thoughts about placement:

We will all continue to use Phonics Road and Singapore Standards.

9 yo son/3rd grade: Phonics Road 2, Singapore Stds 2B, currently reading lots of picture books, finishing Adventures of the Northwoods bk 5, Bears on Hemlock Mountain (one night), he has been reading Little Pilgrims Progress and drawing out and labeling a map to go along with it for AO. He's doing dictation of 2-3 sentences with PR once a week. I have not required any written narrations from him and I'm very happy with his comprehension. I'm ready to see him writing his own narration. I'm not sure which guide this would be, he placed solidly in Bigger and Preparing. I think he would be overwhelmed to write 4 sentences right now, but I do think he could build up to that soon.

8 yo son/2nd grade: Phonics Road 1 accelerating, Singapore Standards 2A, just starting to read early readers with some speed and fluency, but still needs work. Good with narrations (all my kids so these CM style, no summary style yet) and copywork of 1-2 sentences. I don't think he is ready NOW for narrating and writing them, I think he is going to need a step in between. He placed in Beyond and Bigger with the placement chart.

7 yo daughter/1st grade: Phonics Road 1 normal speed, Singapore Standards 1A, knows sounds and can form letters. She is my slow going one and very much a day dreamer. She can narrate, when she understands and copy a sentence. She placed solidly in Beyond.

5 yo daughter/pre-k: Just finished R&S ABCDEF Books. Just shelved Phonics Pathways, she needs a little more time. I'm contemplating where to take her right now. I have a Super Kindergarten workbook, but we did a lot of that in the ABC books. I'm going to bring her through the alphabets (maybe with Super K book or Getty-Dubay A, or maybe both?) and try again with PP in a few weeks. She is definitely one that wants to do school. She throws her workbooks on the table every. single. day. ready to do school! I feel like she is ready for more simple math too. She is very busy and needs to work on sitting and listening. I haven't really tried to place here in the chart.

2.5 yo daughter
son due in the summer!

I'm sorry that is long, I'm trying to be thorough to get good placement for my children, I think that will be extremely important to using HOD.

Some guiding thoughts for me as I try to think through this:
1) I'd like to only use two guides for right now
2) It would be nice to schedule it so my children can make it all the way through hs with HOD without missing a full year
3) I've read some threads where the suggestion is to not be working through consecutive guides
4) I think we should start at 1/2 speed and pick it up as we can.
5) And of course, the most important goal is to place them in the guide for their skill levels, but I don't want to start them off in something that would be behind. I would like to see stretching. You know--a little brain hurt.

I've bought LHFHG and Bigger and have been looking through them. My first thoughts were to put my 8 & 9 year old sons together and my 7 and 5 yo daughter together, but I think my boys need to be separated. My oldest is a alpha, a sweet one, but can be dominant. Their skills are different too, my 9y can easily write from dictation and 8yo is just doing copywork. The girls are pretty far apart too in skill, etc. I do want my 7yo to be challenged also.

I was actually thinking of using Preparing for my 9yo and putting the next two 8yo and 7yo in Bigger maybe Beyond? I could possibly work with my youngest daughter and add her in after I got the hang of things. I would have to figure out storytime, if I would use DITHOR or just let them read them, and if I wanted to read aloud some of the extensions (not all, maybe just some).

Thanks for listening as I've tried to be throughout, but it has turned out being long-winded too. I'm all ears for comments and advice. Thanks so much.

Melissa E.

[countrymom]

When I read your post I was thinking your 8 and 7 yr olds could go in Beyond together. Of course they could do math and reading at whatever level they are at. I would hesitate to put your 8 yr old in Bigger based on what you said about writing (we are in Bigger right now and there is a lot of writing). That would also fit his reading level. I wonder if LHTH wouldn't be the best fit for you 5 yr old once you get the others going, and you could always beef it up by adding phonics when she is ready. LHTH would be an easy 3rd manual to use for your day and only takes about 30 minutes so it shouldn't be too overwhelming. This would also not put you in back to back manuals, at least not on the younger end. I am not going to be good at giving you advice on your oldest since I am really not familiar with Preparing yet, but based on what you said I could see him in Bigger and wonder if Preparing might not be a little stretch for starting out. You mentioned going 1/2 speed until you got things going well. Another idea is stagger starting. Get your oldest going first and get the hang of his guide. Then start with your other two and get the hang of doing the two guides and get a feel for how to schedule the children so you can be back and forth between them. Once you have your routine settled (it always takes a couple of weeks with tweaking here and there), you could start your 5 yr old. If you do decide to go with LHTH many have found that doing that first with the youngest in its entirety is a good plan as it gives the youngest child some quality time with you first and it really doesn't take that long to do. Hopefully some others will chime in, but those were my first thoughts.

[blessedmomof4]

I also agree with the pp based on what you shared: Bigger for the 9 year old (when a child falls between guides on the placement chart it is usually better to go with the lower guide), Beyond for the 8 and 7 year olds, and Little Hands for the year old. You mentioned taking her through the alphabet, and Little Hands does that in a great way, combined with Bible, art, math (numbers) and other great stuff, in only 30 minutes a day. I think this plan would be very doable, and by stagger-starting you can all get into a rhythm that suits your family Your toddler may even enjoy joining in with your 5 year old for some of the Little Hands activities.

[MomtoJGJE]

I know back to back guides are not optimal, but if that's where they best place, it really works well I would suggest, from what you've said, Bigger for your 9yo, Beyond (maybe even half speed for a while or 4 days per week anyway) for your 7 and 8yos, and I would do LHFHG half speed with your 5 year old. She sounds about where my 5yo is... loves school, wants to learn, etc... my 5yo is having a blast and wanting more (which I"m fine with her wanting more... doesn't mean I have to give it in school time) and we are doing LHFHG half speed 4 days a week, so we get 2 days worth of work done from the TM in a week.

I'm currently doing Preparing (either half speed or full speed depending on the day, she does it well, sometimes I just want to be done), Beyond full speed, and LHFHG half speed, and will be adding LHTH in May. When they are placed correctly it's really not hard to do It flows nicely.

Oh, and my oldest is going to be 9 in April... if we hadn't started from the beginning with HOD, I would not hesitate to start her in Bigger right now... If I just absolutely wanted to start her in Preparing I would DEFINITELY go half speed. But so far there isn't much more writing than in Bigger, it's just different writing.

[mom23]

My initial thought in reading the descriptions of each of your kiddos was to suggest Bigger for 9/8 yo (could use extensions for 9yo, if needed) and either LHFHG or Beyond for 7yo...However, in reading further, it sounds like you really think the 9 and 8 would be better split up? In that case, I'd say maybe Bigger (Preparing might be fine if you start slow) for 9 yo; and Beyond for 8 and 7. Sounds like your 5 yo might be a great fit in LHTH.

[legacyacademy]

Thank you ladies so much for your replies! I've been reading through your posts and pondering them all day. Seems like I could:
1) put my oldest two in Bigger and my younger (7yo) in Beyond or
2) put my oldest in Preparing at a slow pace and the other two in either Bigger or Beyond.

I'm going to keep my 5yo separate for now and get my oldest kiddos settled right now. If I went half to 3/4 speed through this year and part of next, because of a new baby coming, should I do the 2nd option? I'm worried about using both Beyond and Bigger side by side (both American) for my sanity. If some of you have done it and it went well, I would love to hear from you. On the other hand, I do like Bigger's focus on the Proverbs and character traits. I don't think my oldest would get that if he started in Preparing.

One more question...Where do they start learning how to write down their narrations? If slowly start Preparing, will he have to write 4 sentences starting out or does it start with like 2 and lead up to 4? If he started in Bigger, do they eventually start writing down their narrations?

Thanks again for all your help. I'm glad to be narrowing down this process...

Melissa E.

[Carrie]

Melissa,

The ladies are doing a wonderful job of helping you talk through your options. With kiddos as close in age as you have, there are quite a few different scenarios that may be possible for you to consider. I think you are wise to consider doing fewer guides to start if at all possible.

As I'm reading through what you've shared so far, I had a couple of thoughts. First, in coming from doing Ambleside for almost 4 years with my oldest son (years ago), I think you'll find the amount of written work and teaching of skills found within the HOD guides to be different from what you're used to in Ambleside. I agree that with Ambleside, I felt like I was continually trying to figure out when to add in certain skills and how to progress in those skills from year to year. The readings were very challenging (as we used years 3, 4, 5, and 6) as were the narrations (both written and oral). However, there were more skills that I wanted to incorporate and teach that I never knew how to incorporate, and the HOD guides will really walk you through that process.

As you transition to HOD and the variety of written work and more formal teaching of various skills, it can be challenging to figure out where each child will fit best. In thinking through the possible placements for your kiddos, I discovered there are a questions that I kept thinking of that will help us advise you even better. You did such a good job of sharing about each of your kiddos that I hesitate to ask more questions! But, I cannot seem to get a clear feel for which scenario would be best at this point, so I'll ask away.

As far as your oldest son goes, has he had cursive writing instruction already? Has he had any formal grammar instruction yet? Does he do written work on a daily basis, and if so in which subjects and how much? Can he read and follow written directions? Did he do any of his own history or science reading in the past, or did you read it all aloud to him?:D

As far as your second son goes, what are a few titles of early readers he is currently reading? Is he copying 1-2 sentences a day or a week? How much written work does he do on a daily basis? Is he ready for cursive writing? How well does he do with spelling? Has he ever done any notebooking? Has he had much in the way of formal history or science?

As far as your 7 year old goes, how does she do listening to read alouds without pictures? Can she listen to chapter book style read alouds and comprehend them? Personality-wise would she combine better with your 8 year old or better with your 5 year old? Has she had much in the way of formal school as far as history or science goes?

As far as your 5 year old goes, how does she do listening to read alouds that are longer than picture books? Is she ready to write her letters? Does she know her letter sounds? Can she write numbers? Has she had any formal introduction to math yet? How does she do with cutting and pasting?

I know this is a pretty extensive list, but I've typed out so many different responses and scenarios for you only to delete them, because I feel I can't get a good handle on each of your kiddos' skills. So, if you don't mind taking the time to answer these questions, I think we'll all be able to advise you better. Placement is a bit more time-consuming in this case due to the possible combining scenarios there are in your situation. So, this is why I ask the additional questions. Thanks for your patience!

Blessings,
Carrie

[legacyacademy]

Melissa,

The ladies are doing a wonderful job of helping you talk through your options. With kiddos as close in age as you have, there are quite a few different scenarios that may be possible for you to consider. I think you are wise to consider doing fewer guides to start if at all possible.

As I'm reading through what you've shared so far, I had a couple of thoughts. First, in coming from doing Ambleside for almost 4 years with my oldest son (years ago), I think you'll find the amount of written work and teaching of skills found within the HOD guides to be different from what you're used to in Ambleside. I agree that with Ambleside, I felt like I was continually trying to figure out when to add in certain skills and how to progress in those skills from year to year. The readings were very challenging (as we used years 3, 4, 5, and 6) as were the narrations (both written and oral). However, there were more skills that I wanted to incorporate and teach that I never knew how to incorporate, and the HOD guides will really walk you through that process.
Yes, this is exactly how I feel, exactly!

As you transition to HOD and the variety of written work and more formal teaching of various skills, it can be challenging to figure out where each child will fit best. In thinking through the possible placements for your kiddos, I discovered there are a questions that I kept thinking of that will help us advise you even better. You did such a good job of sharing about each of your kiddos that I hesitate to ask more questions! But, I cannot seem to get a clear feel for which scenario would be best at this point, so I'll ask away.
Actually, I am very thankful to you Carrie for answer question about our situation.

As far as your oldest son goes, has he had cursive writing instruction already?
He works through his Getty-Dubay D book on days when we are not "on schedule" because of visitors, Thanksgiving, Christmas time, etc. He is mainly doing the cursive part and is halfway through that part.
Has he had any formal grammar instruction yet? Does he do written work on a daily basis, and if so in which subjects and how much?
Not much. We are working our way through Phonics Road 2 and he should be finished with the basic grammar taught by mid June.
Can he read and follow written directions?
Yes, he in fact likes some independence. As long as directions are not really complicated.
Did he do any of his own history or science reading in the past, or did you read it all aloud to him?:D
Yes, he reads some of his AO year 3 readings like Little Pilgrims Progress, Our Island Story, The Princess and the Goblin, he began reading his poetry (William Blake), and Tall Tales, doing well with his narrations. I read our Leonardo DaVinci book, poetry on most days, and Marco Polo. We are doing Nancy Larson Science 1 and its really so easy for him because its level 1, so he doesn't read much assigned science. We've been on pause since Christmas though and only doing Bible, Math, and English.

As far as your second son goes, what are a few titles of early readers he is currently reading?
Frog and Toad stuff is beginning to flow now for him, but he is more slow to try chapter books. He has not read any chapter books. We bought him the Early Learner Bible about a year ago and he has been reading through that at night. I asked him to find his ER Bible for me so we could begin to read it with the Emerging Reader Schedule and he was pretty adamant about reading his Holman Standard Bible instead. I know he's read a lot of the EL Bible on his own, but I still would have daily time for him to read from the ER Schedule in HOD. We "might" start with the next book. He does read all his spelling words outloud after we go through them and he has a "reader" in Phonics Road he reads through and then draws the picture.
Is he copying 1-2 sentences a day or a week? How much written work does he do on a daily basis?
Yes, I'm actually dictating a short sentence for him using his spelling words in Phonics Road, we do this about 2x weekly.
Is he ready for cursive writing? How well does he do with spelling? Has he ever done any notebooking?
On our "off" days (like above with his brother) we use Getty-Dubay C cursive section only and he is about halfway through right now. He's doing good with spelling, I'd say an average 2nd grader. I dictate a word and he "builds" the word. Today he did words like Monday, Sunday, moon, each. No notebooking, we've drawn and captioned things in reading about science or history, but no timelines. We have a Adams Chart we like to look up and put tabs on when reading through our books.
Has he had much in the way of formal history or science?
When he was in K, we read through Beautiful Feet Early American History, then I moved to VP Old Testament & Ancienct Egypt last year, but that wasn't a good fit for us. I have used AO this year before thanksgiving, reading from year 2. As far as science, nothing formal until this year when I started Nancy Larson 1 with the three oldest, just living books and encyclopedias with a simple narration and picture to accompany.

As far as your 7 year old goes, how does she do listening to read alouds without pictures?
She would much rather see pictures! I've been doing narrations with her since she was 6 and they can be hard for her, she is much better than she used to be, but I've been through 3 of the Early Learner Workbooks that work on auditory, spacial, visual, etc perceptions and she is definitely weak in auditory. Those books seemed to help or maybe she is just getting better from age and continued reading.
Can she listen to chapter book style read alouds and comprehend them?
As long as they are not too long. Short chapters she could definitely do. Our Bible Story Book (Ergemeiers, which we a few stories from finishing) has few pictures, and she has doing better and better with it.
Personality-wise would she combine better with your 8 year old or better with your 5 year old? Has she had much in the way of formal school as far as history or science goes?
Oh man! I have been round and round in my head trying to figure if she would do better with my 5yo or my 7yo son. Today, I was thinking I would like to combine the boys in Bigger and then the girls in LHFHG. My 8yo is doing well with his dictation sentences, and my daughter 7yo is not even reading or able to do those things and can barely put words together. I just noticed today that he just seemed much closer in skills with his older brother, than with his sister 7yo. I know that all could change as soon as her reading picks up though, but then I can see my 5yo reading much earlier than my 7yo has done. Oh, decisions! My 7yo daughter hasn't done any formal history besides sitting in on the above histories the boys have done. She was younger and I didn't require anything unless she wanted to color and I'd ask simple but casual questions. She is doing well with Nancy Larson 1, level is just right for her.

As far as your 5 year old goes, how does she do listening to read alouds that are longer than picture books?
She is busy, busy, busy and I really haven't seen any interest in her wanting to listen to anything longer than our Bible Story which is about 1-2 pages long. I did read one chapter from a Burgess book to see how she would do and I she answered my simple questions and could tell me what happened, I think she could do short chapters.
Is she ready to write her letters?
Yes, we have started the Super K book, while I'm working through this decision. They have letter pages we are doing and she is doing well.
Does she know her letter sounds?
No, I just shelved Phonics Pathways, for a few weeks.
Can she write numbers? Has she had any formal introduction to math yet?
She wrote numbers 1-10 extensively in the ABC workbooks from R&S, which we just finished last week. No formal math yet.
How does she do with cutting and pasting?
Let's just say, I'm glad trees are renewable. I've never had a child who could cut and paste so much in one sitting and go through so much paper! LOL.

I know this is a pretty extensive list, but I've typed out so many different responses and scenarios for you only to delete them, because I feel I can't get a good handle on each of your kiddos' skills. So, if you don't mind taking the time to answer these questions, I think we'll all be able to advise you better. Placement is a bit more time-consuming in this case due to the possible combining scenarios there are in your situation. So, this is why I ask the additional questions. Thanks for your patience!

Blessings,
Carrie

I don't mind taking the time to get them into the right place, I know it will pay off and I want them to succeed and blossom. I think the structure you've created in these guides is just what my kids are craving--and me too. I know my kids are just close enough to make it more complicated and I am very thankful for your devotion to not just making wonderful guides, but advising parents like myself, who can't see things you can. Bless You!

Melissa E.

[Carrie]

legacyacademy,

Thanks so much for taking time to type out all of your responses to my questions! It was so helpful! Thank you also for your patience in hearing back from me.

After pondering through all of the thoughts you've shared in this thread, I really feel that your oldest son is ready for Preparing Hearts. I honestly think he will be able to do it full-speed after an adjustment period at the beginning. It is a 4 day plan with each 5th day free. I feel comfortable that he will be able to read the books in the Deluxe Package (as assigned in the Independent History Study box). I also think he is ready for beginning written narrations and for the upped level of writing that comes with Preparing Hearts. The transition from something rigorous like Ambleside or Veritas Press makes a difference when coming to HOD in a child's readiness skills for the guide.

As far as your oldest son goes, I would continue on with Italic D and try to do a page a day to get him writing in cursive. The Preparing guide will assign one copywork assignment a day to be done in cursive. I would lean toward beginning your son in Rod and Staff English 3 at full-speed as scheduled in Preparing Hearts. I would also lean toward using DITHR Level 2/3 along with the Level 4/5 Book Pack. DITHR is scheduled 3 times weekly in Preparing Hearts.

As far as your just turned 8 year old second son goes, I would place him in Beyond and plan to combine him with your just turned 7 year old daughter. I would recommend beginning your second son with Frog and Toad in the Emerging Reader's Set and then going forward following the schedule in the Beyond Appendix for the Emerging Readers and questions.

When your just turned 8 year old son starts third grade, I would begin Rod and Staff English 2 with him doing a lesson a day. Until then, I would just do the gentle grammar lessons in Beyond with both he and your daughter together. It is possible that your just turned 8 year old son will be beyond the List 2 for spelling in Beyond. If this is so, and he is ready for the first level of dictation passages (which is Level 2), then you would just use those from the Appendix of the Preparing Hearts guide that you will already have purchased for your older son. Preparing Hearts includes dictation Levels 2 and 3.

For your just turned 7 year old daughter, I would advise doing The Reading Lesson with CD for phonics. It is a gentler introduction to phonics than Phonics Pathways, and we're using it with good success right now with our own 5 year old. I would also advise doing either Italic Book B or A Reason for Handwriting A along with Beyond to get her started on writing words. Do not have her do the copywork from the poetry in Beyond until she has finished her handwriting workbook. Then, at that time, switch to having her do some copywork from Beyond's poetry.

I would lean toward using the Boy Set as a read-aloud for the Beyond guide, because it is shorter and will help keep your younger daughter's attention. I wouldn't reveal to your daughter that you're reading the "Boy Set" aloud, and she probably won't know the difference. You may want to replace the Apple and the Arrow with In Grandma's Attic. Or, if you feel it would be better to do the Girl Set instead with both kiddos, you could replace All-of-a-Kind Family with Follow My Leader or Mountain Born instead. I wouldn't begin Spelling List 1 with your daughter until she is about 9 weeks into succeeding with The Reading Lesson. Then, begin with List 1, following the plans in the Beyond guide.

I'm assuming you'll just keep going with your math that you're currently using. While you can also continue with your phonics and your spelling, it's important to realize that doing these will likely add time to your day outside of what we are allotting for these areas. If you're fine with your day going longer, then it will be fine to keep some of those things. If not, you may wish to consider doing as I've suggested above for language arts.

As far as your 5 year old goes, I would lean toward having her do LHTH and just adding in phonics for her after she is mid-way through LHTH. I think LHTH will give her the momma time she is craving, give her time spent in the Lord's Word every day, and appeal to her need to move! It will also cement all of those needed K level skills.

As you look at this plan, I also wanted to mention a back-up plan to keep in the back of your mind. If, as you progress through the year, you find that your just turned 7 year old daughter is not ready for Bigger at the end of Beyond, or happens to not be thriving in Beyond as you progress through it. Then, you can always move her down to join your just turned 5 year old in LHFHG when your 5 year old is more ready. With the plan I've shared above, you will keep your two oldest students moving forward well-placed, and the back-up plan allows for some wiggle room in your approach with your 7 year old daughter.

Feel free to share your thoughts, as I'd love to hear them.

Blessings,
Carrie

[legacyacademy]

Carrie,

Thank you very much for your sound advice in placing my children. I'm glad to hear my oldest can start Preparing, as it looks like a really wonderful year he would enjoy. I also like the DITHR recommendations you gave, I think that will be perfect! The 4 day schedule will give us some room to adjust, although I won't start out full-speed.

Using the Beyond guide with the recommendations you've suggested also sounds good for my 8yo and 7yo. I really think they will work well together and find the year enjoyable. I'm going to look into using "The Reading Lesson" also, but we are using Phonics Road right now and my 7yo and her reading is starting to go really well, but I will consider. I'm really glad you guided me towards using the boy set for Beyond, I would have come back to ask about that one!

I'm really grateful you made Language Arts recommendations. I really like what we are using, but when we begin the guides, I'm not sure how long our day will become. We make a move towards using the recommendations you've provided. These may become very helpful in the near future!

I do think my 5yo would really enjoy LHTH, looking at it again, she would get quite a lot from it, and she really likes to move!

I'm also going to keep your backup plan in mind--hoping I won't have to use it!

I do like the staggering of the guides, it should make the "next" year something to look forward to. We will continue to use Singapore, although I think I may switch my girls to primary, and then in 3A I can come back to Standards, since that's what we have been using. That way we can use the activities lined up in the guides for each child's level.

Just want to thank you again for helping me "place" my children with your program. I've been looking through the catalog and have been getting really excited! Your board in general has been a wealth of information too!

Melissa E.