Running mult. guides = epic fail for us :(

[Sue G in PA]

Okay, I gave it my best shot. I really did. I am running RtR for my ds12 and ds13, Bigger for ds10 and Beyond for ds8 and dd6. My ds12 was almost 100% independent in RtR while ds13 really just didn't have the discipline yet. I found out today that ds12 had been skipping assignments. And even though I check, I must have somehow missed it. The boys need a bit more hand-holding than I had anticipated. Ds10 is already a challenge. If he would do the work efficiently, I wouldn't have to spend sooo much time with him and I would have more time for Beyond. However, my reality is that it just isn't getting done. Ds8 is not reading at grade level yet and I am concentrating on phonics and reading with him. Dd6 is craving more of a challenge. She is VERY bright and is actually very advanced for her age in reading, writing, spelling, math, etc. So, here is a plan that dh and I came up with for the remainder of the year...it isn't optimal...but it might work:

Combine ds10, ds8 and dd6 in Bigger. We are already behind in that (not even to Unit 10 yet). Ds8, though his reading isn't quite up to par, can comprehend well, can write/copy longer passages and his math is certainly at grade level. He could do Bigger...with help. Dd6 could also quite possible do very well in Bigger. She reads way ahead of her grade level, already copies long passages (I often find her with a book, copying the text into her notebook ), is ready for cursive, is ahead in math (already in Singapore 2A), etc. The only problem with this scenario is the years to come with dd6. It would put her in Preparing at age 7, CtC and age 8 and so on...reaching the new Geography high school guide by 7th grade. If she progresses skill-wise at the same rate as she is now, it won't be a problem. However, I do know from experience that children sometimes hit "walls" at certain ages. Anyway, if anyone can help me figure out something else, I'd be much appreciative. I simply just can't run 3 Guides. I have a 10th grader doing MFW WHL and I am not giving her the time she needs either. I am one person. I love HOD and I want to make it work for us but 3 Guides is not happening right now. Thanks.

[blessedmomof4]

Just brainstorming, based on what you shared...how about if you put the 13, 12, and 10 yo in Preparing, with extensions for the older two? This would keep it challenging enough for all but give them time to grow into skills they need to be successful with the higher guides...if they haven't done that guide before. Or they could bump down to CTC, again if they haven't done it yet, with extensions for the older two if needed. Then keep the 8 and 6 yo in Beyond, so that you don't have the concern of the 6 yo hitting the higher guides too young in maturity.
Perhaps the best thing to do, actually, before considering new combining scenarios, is to reassess where each child fits right now, individually, on the placement chart, and go from there...I pray you get some more input and find a really workable solution!

[Carrie]

Sue,

It looks like Lourdes and I are both up late and both wanting to help you talk through options. We were posting at the same time! I agree that a fresh assessment always helps.

I can feel your frustration in the title of your thread, and so I was going back over in my mind trying to recall the specifics of your situation and guide placements from the past. Placing your kiddos in the correct guide(s) can make all the difference in the world as to whether running multiple guides works for a family.

In pondering your situation, if I'm remembering correctly, I was thinking that you had your older three in Preparing Hearts last year and then skipped your older two past CTC to go to RTR this year. In all honesty, the jump from Preparing to RTR is absolutely huge. I cannot imagine almost any child being able to make that type of leap in skills and independence in one year's time. There's no way my kiddos could do it, and they have been doing HOD guides since the beginning. To skip up a guide can happen, but it would be the true exception. So, what you're seeing with your older two is not unexpected given the difficulty of the guide and the training of skills that we're expecting they received, or its equivalent, in CTC.

I'm also thinking that your third little guy was along for part of the ride for Preparing last year and then backed up to Bigger because it was too tough. That is not a big problem if Bigger is where he fits best. From what you're sharing about your 6 and 8 year olds, I wouldn't be in a hurry to bump either child up to Bigger Hearts. If you would have to give your 8 year old quite a bit of help to complete Bigger, then you'd have two kiddos in Bigger who need quite a bit of help. This situation is not going to improve as you head into Preparing Hearts the following year. I applaud your diligence in working to find a plan that will fit your family. Your honest survey of your situation is so helpful too.

In thinking through your options, based on what you've shared so far, I would encourage you to consider placing your 6, 8, and 10 year old in Beyond together for many things. Then, I would continue to do the 3R's and the science from Bigger with your 10 year old, in place of what is in Beyond. With this plan, your 10 year old would still be on track with DITHR, Rod and Staff (or whatever grammar you use), dictation, math, and the daily science plans from Bigger. He would just join the younger two for the history, Bible, poetry, music, activities, and storytime. Yet, he'd be getting the appropriate level of skills in his overall day. This would also allow you to move the group of kiddos into Bigger Hearts, whenever they finished Beyond. At that point, your 10 year old could do the Extensions, and he would do the 3R's and science from Preparing.

As far as your older two go, I would make the switch to CTC for them. This will give them the transitional year they need to prepare for RTR. It will also allow them to be more successful in the tasks they are being asked to do. You'll still have to check on them for each box to make sure they have done the task, but the tasks are less difficult and shorter, and the readings are shorter too. I still meet with my child in Rev2Rev mid-morning to go over his "independent work" every day, and I check him again after lunch. My Rev2Rev child is a great student, but can be a bit scatter-brained, so I still check it all every day. I think running these two guides would be more realistic for your kiddos and would set them up on a path for success as they go through the guides. One guide does truly prepare a child for the next guide in line.

I'd love to hear your thoughts as you're pondering your options. I fear that continuing with guides that are over your kiddos heads will just result in continued frustration for both you and your students. I deeply desire your homeschool experience to be a good one. If you do decide to make the switch to CTC, you are welcome to return any unused items for a refund to apply toward purchasing what you'd need for CTC.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Sue G in PA]

Lourdes, Carrie...thank you! Carrie, I don't know HOW you remember all that you do but your memory of our situation is amazing (and right on!). We DID use Preparing last year and skip over CtC and put ds10 back a guide. Bigger is the PERFECT fit for him this year. Really. It is challenging enough, but not over his head. Now, the skip over CtC to RtR. My reasons for as much skill-based as they were content-based. We had previously done Ancients ad nauseum and I couldn't even wrap my brain around doing another year of it. We came to HOD a bit late in our game, lol. And then there was ds13...he hadn't even TOUCHED on American History (except for the little bunny trails we would take on Pearl Harbor Day or MLK day or Presidents day, etc...but certainly not enough). At that time, dh wanted ds13 to go to public high school. Doing RtR was going to give him at least a "little" American History at the end to prepare him for our public high school which did the American History from the 1870s forward for 9th grade. ANYWAY, dh has NOW decided we need to keep them all home...for the long haul. I'm thrilled...and it gives me a bit more freedom to do what I want...not what the school wants. Soooo...the skills in RtR are NOT over their heads. Trust me. The lack of independence is more an attitude problem than a skill problem. Does that make sense? The reading, the writing, the work involved is on target for both boys. Ds12 is much more independent by nature...he will often have 1/2 his work done before I even get to him in the morning. But he has been slacking...and has gotten lazy. He needs more accountability. Ds13...it is all attitude. He CAN do the work...just doesn't want to and when he does finally get around to doing it it is half-hearted and sloppy and I end up or or both. I don't want to fall back to CtC for many reasons...not the least of which is we are BROKE (and I am to say that we purchased the packages used so can't return anything). I have all the Guides up to RtR except CtC. I can do parts from each as you suggested, Carrie. That might work. Honestly, it already has me cringing b/c I am such a box checking perfectionist that is would about kill me to be skipping parts of some guides and doing parts of another. That's just me...but I can be reformed! On another board I frequent, it was suggested by another HOD Mom to go half or 3/4 speed with RtR as not to rush through and to build the skills securely. I like that idea. As it is a 4 day program, we already spread it out over 5 days, saving the science experiment and history project for Friday. For my younger 3...I like your suggestion of doing Beyond with all 3 except for the 3Rs and Science for ds10. THAT might just work for us. Thank you so much, Carrie. I've been praying a lot about this. I do think RtR is a good fit...and it puts us where we need to be for ds13 and high school (using RevtoRev with high school suggestions). Now, to figure out a new schedule...

[Tidbits of Learning]

If your older dc need accountability, then I would suggest grades. I grade math and english the typical way. I have a check rubric that I use to grade narrations and other things. A report card is the easiest method to report to our state on years that standardized testing isn't mandatory. I have found when my children get a lower grade based on their laziness or attitude that they buckle down.

* I didn't make the check rubric, but I have used it so long I can no longer find the teacher's site that I got it from.
I would suggest even if you can't check in multiple times during the day that at the end of your day of schooling with the kids that you go over your older dc's work. You don't have to "grade" it right then. I normally look over the CTC guide and then compare it to what my dc have accomplished. Sometimes right off the bat I will see that my older child (who thinks school is a race) has left off something from the instructions. I will call them back even if they have been "done" for hours and show them their mistake and put them to work on it after going over the directions carefully together.
I then go to getting ready for supper or any other task that I need to focus on at this time. I have a word file that has 4 of the check rubric to a page. I laminated it for my older dc so that they can see what I am looking for when I grade. I can email it to you if you would like. If they have had a bad attitude or didn't follow directions or do sloppy, too fast work then they are already down to just a check and have lost 10 points. As for their report card, I just use the well planned day planner's report cards that come with it. You can find plenty of report cards free online though.
The nice thing about report cards is that locally a lot of places give rewards for good grades. It can be a good incentive if you get to go to the arcade at the end of term and get free tokens. Off the top of my head, most arcades, chuckee cheese, and I am sure others give such rewards. You could also make up your own reward system for good grades and careful, thorough work.

[Sue G in PA]

I would love a copy of the rubric/check-off sheet! That just might work for us. Dh has already stepped up and offered to look over their work each day (when he is in town, that is ). Thank you! My email is ssgerdes@zoominternet.net.

[Sue G in PA]

I just wanted to update and thank everyone for the advice and thoughts. I'm stubborn. And I hate to "quit". I went back to the drawing board and revamped our schedule, talked to dh and got his input and am going to try again. My beginning of the year schedule had me going crazy. Too much back and forth between kids, subjects, etc. This time, I did things more in "blocks" of time. I am hoping that everyone cooperates. It is my last ditch effort to make 3 guides work for us b/c I honestly believe that each child is placed correctly. I'll let you all know how it goes after this week. Thanks again.

[Molly]

Here's hoping you have a great week. Will be praying that the block schedule will work much better for you all.

[MomtoJGJE]

FWIW I cannot go back and forth from child to child... well, I can get Jayden working on her ind work (at least before we started Preparing but we just started) and then go and do someone else, but I cannot bounce between children teaching. And at this point I have to complete one child before moving on to the next. Of course my highest level is Preparing So I'm sure that will change.

[Carrie]

Sue,

In pondering what you've shared, I think it is so important to remember that even if your older two "can" do the skills that are being asked of them in RTR it may be very difficult for them to transition to the level of independence in RTR (without the stepping stone of CTC between Preparing and RTR). So, since you are not desiring to have them take a step back and do CTC, I would definitely slow the pace of RTR down to half-speed to give them time to be trained in accountability for the skills in RTR and time to grow into the skills too. It is truly a huge leap from Preparing to RTR, and I think that deserves to be noted as we look at what is being expected of your boys this year when compared to doing Preparing mainly with you last year.

As far as your 10 year old goes, I think that the plan of combining him with the youngers for just the left side of Beyond and the Storytime is a good option and one not to be overlooked too quickly. As long as his 3 R's and science are still coming from Bigger and are grade appropriate, this plan would be fine. It would allow you to be spread less thin too for the long haul and give you more time to spend with the kiddos on their history, without feeling rushed all the time. You'll know best, but I did want to encourage you that with the size of your family, decisions about where your time should be spent have to be made. There is only so much of you to go around!

Blessings,
Carrie

[Sue G in PA]

Carrie, I just noticed you posted again and I wanted to thank you for your words of wisdom. I have been praying a LOT about what you have suggested, what works for my family (and for me), where I want my dc to be in the coming years, etc. I would like to share that after I revamped our schedule...3 guides are getting done. That's the good news. The bad news is: I am EXHAUSTED! Knowing that they are going to be held more accountable, my RtR boys have really stepped up to the plate and have been completing the assignments...mostly w/out my help. My 10yo, who is my most challenging, is also stepping up to the plate and getting his work done (albeit with me by his side 100% of the time). I enlisted my oldest daughter's help in reading History to my Beyond children. They really enjoy that. I must confess, however, that although this new "schedule" seems to be working...I feel so out of the loop with my RtR boys. I know they are supposed to do the work independently (with the exception of the boxes that aren't) but I guess I am used to being more involved. And my day feels rushed. Instead of really enjoying and digging in to a particular subject I find myself just rushing through to "get it done" and check off that box. That isn't how I want to "do school". So, Carrie, I am re-considering your plan...it will certainly free up more of my time and ds10 won't know the difference in the History that he WAS doing and the History he WILL BE doing....expecially if I have him do the right side of Bigger. I must spend some time this weekend and ponder these options and map out the plans for the future. Thanks again, Carrie. I appreciate your input more than you know.

[my3sons]

... I know they are supposed to do the work independently (with the exception of the boxes that aren't) but I guess I am used to being more involved...

In reading through your post above, and thinking through what you shared, I think it is key to understand that "independent" does not mean we check out of teaching. Otherwise, we would truly be "out of the loop". As teachers of our dc, we are still responsible in some way for each part of the plans, even as our children mature. Yet, that involvement changes as our children get older. To show you what I mean, I'll share an example from last year.

Last year in RTR, there was one part of the plans I was not vigilant about fulfilling my teacher's role each day with my ds. It was the Bible Quiet Time box. I did not have him say his verses for me, and I did not check his Common Place Book for his copywork of them. I "spot-checked" this somewhere in the middle of the year, and I found Wyatt had stopped his memorization and copywork of the verses about 2 months earlier. But this box was "independent", one might say. Yes, but "independent", I soon realized, does not mean devoid of teacher responsibility. I learned this the hard way, but I have not forgotten that lesson.

To give you another example of what I mean...I had a teacher in high school that did not correct our work. Everyone in the class knew this. Days - even weeks - would pass, with no comment or correction of our work. I'm sure you had teachers like this in your past as well! Everyone's work suffered. We all knew the teacher did not care about our completed work by his actions, and we soon followed his lead and did not care either. I remembered that teacher and felt sad when I did not choose to be responsible for Wyatt's Bible Quiet Time box in RTR. This year in RevtoRev, I am happy to say that I have fully embraced my changing role of teacher responsibility, and I am striving to be very in touch with every aspect of Wyatt's learning. He appreciates this because he can tell I care about every facet of his learning, and he knows he will be held accountable. His work has been excellent because of it. I have not had to spend much extra time for this, surprisingly. It has been an excellent year.

So, I agree with you, you are quite right in your assessment above. We DO need to be involved in every aspect of our dc's learning. Though boxes are marked "independent", there truly is no completely independent work, without some teacher interaction, as we are ultimately responsible for our dc's education. HOD's guides plan for teachers to do their part, and what I really appreciate about the daily plans, is I receive clear guidance about how to go about this, and the manner in which I do this has much variety. This makes our interactions varied and fresh!

To give you a feel for how this looks in our home this year, I will try to do a rundown of my teacher responsibility in RevtoRev here... (I know this is much more than you're needing to know right now, but I share it in hopes that it might be helpful in giving other families a glimpse into how I stay involved with my child's education each day.)

Reading about History - Written Narration follow-up - Open RevtoRev to the "Written Narration Tips: Teacher's List" in the Appendix. Make sure I understand my teacher's part in written narrations. These 3 pages I read prior to starting school, and several times throughout the year as a good reminder of my teaching role. In the day to day of teaching, I follow the steps for "After Writing a Written Narration", and I reference "Written Narration Skills: Teacher's Part" and "Written Narration Skills: Student's List" in the Appendix as we go through my ds's written narration together. I have my ds read his written narration out loud to me, as that is the first step of "After Writing a Written Narration", give encouragement (as that is the second step), and then we work through the "Written Narration Skills" list, whichever step he is on within that list. I then read the key idea out loud, which is a nice recap of the history reading.

Reading about History - Detailed Oral Narration follow-up - Open RevtoRev to the "Narration Tips: Teacher's List" and "How to Narrate: Student's List" in the Appendix. Make sure I understand my teacher's part and the student's part in oral narrations. These 2 pages I read prior to starting school, and several times throughout the year as a good reminder of my teaching role. In the day to day of teaching, I follow the steps within the daily plans. I choose one paragraph from the noted pages of the history reading as a starting point for my ds's narration, set the timer for 4-6 minutes, utilize the Narration Tips in the Appendix as needed, have Wyatt look up and read aloud the Bible passage for the Biblical application part, and discuss the question/topic noted. I then read the key idea out loud, which is a nice recap of the history reading.

Reading about History - United States History Atlas follow-up - I ask any questions noted in the plans, and have Wyatt orally answer. If it is a day with no questions, I simply ask a brief informal question "Did you find 'x in the History Atlas? Or, were you able to locate 'x' and follow the path of 'x' well today?" He almost always responds with more than "Yes", as he was interested in what he did. I then read the key idea out loud.

Reading about History - Period Artwork study follow-up: Ask the questions provided in the plans. Wyatt orally answers. I like to look at the painting too - it is usually quite poignant. I then read the key idea out loud.

Storytime follow-up: Ask the questions. Wyatt orally answers.

History Project follow-up: Make sure he's done everything in the box he was asked to do. Give it back to him, help him fix anything he needs to, compliment him on what he did well, and of course EAT IT if it was something he made. And, you guessed it, I read the key idea out loud.

For the boxes of Poetry and Worthy Words follow-ups: Skim the poem or primary source document. Ask the questions provided. Wyatt orally answers. Comment, as I'm usually personally moved somehow by the poem , and read the key idea.

For the boxes of State Study, Independent History Study, Geography, and Timeline follow-ups: Check any written work, ask any questions in the guide, read the key idea.

Research follow-up: Have Wyatt read his cards to me. Comment - these men are INTERESTING! Correct any spelling errors together.

Bible Quiet Time follow-up: Have Wyatt say all of his verses for me. Check workbook "Hidden Treasures". Read key idea.

Biblical Worldview follow-up: Read and discuss it together, sharing what struck each of us. Go through journal instructions if it's a journal day, and write comments after he's journaled.

Drawn into the Heart of Reading follow up: Do my part as noted in Teacher's Guide. 99% of the time I have Wyatt read 2 pages out loud to me too, even though the guide doesn't suggest it at Level 6/7/8 as it helps keep his oral reading skills sharp (an area he used to struggle with).

R & S English: I ask 5 oral review questions and help him with these as needed. He reads the lesson on his own. I recap the highlights from what he read, especially any "Remember" boxes. I get a markerboard. We go through the oral review together. I choose 1 section (around 7 problems) for him to write out his answers. I stay by his side this entire lesson. It goes faster this way, and I am available to help as needed.

Math: I read the Textbook out loud. We each have markerboards and work the problems together. I stay by his side for the independent part and am available to help as needed. Again, it goes faster this way.

Science: I check his logbook and his hands-on work. I write comments on the top. I read the main answer(s) from the Teacher's Answer Key, as they are a super recap of the theory learned.

Inventor Study: Oral narration - follow teacher guidelines in Appendix again. Timeline or picture - check written work. Informally comment. Written narration - see previous comments. At end of all of these, read key idea.

Exciting World of Creative Writing: Read it together. Discuss. Get him started. Be near as needed for help. Have him read his work out loud. He edits as he wants as he reads. I edit it. Help him fix whatever needs to be fixed. Write short comments.

Dictation: He studies. I read aloud in phrases. Correct together using key.

Music Appreciation: Read through box together. Stay by to help as needed. Great fun!

I do these follow-ups in chunks of time, not one at a time spread out through they day, so it feels as if we are simply sitting down to discuss his work and dialoguing about what he's learned. I find he can now answer my questions, do oral narrations, etc. whenever I meet with him; it is not necessary for him to do these directly after the readings. This is a gain that comes with age. So, we have a few teaching block times, and a general "check-up" time, where we do multiple follow-ups together in a row. This is not cumbersome, but has actually become very enjoyable, and it does not take a lot of time, but actually saves time as he makes sure he is well prepared for our meeting time. He knows I will follow-up on everything, so he is ready. He will usually ask for a few minutes' notice to prepare for his oral narration on inventors, especially if it is science, as he gets up early to do science, and I don't have him narrate until later in the morning.

The guide makes it easy on me to make sure I am holding myself accountable for my teaching work and my ds accountable for his learning work. I skim the books (usually a page in the beginning, the middle, and the end), read the key ideas, and have Wyatt hand me the book open to the first page he read as we do the follow-ups. I have done a better job of doing "my part" this year, and as a result (no surprise), Wyatt is doing an even better job of doing "his part". We are also finishing in a very timely fashion. When I am diligent about checking up on our dc, I find they are diligent about their work. So, I share all of this to say, if you have not added a "check-up" time or two into your daily schedule, I highly recommend doing it - it has made our time together very focused, and we are very in touch with one another every day. It also SHORTENS our school day because it does not allow poor work habits to form.

What was exhausting to me in the past was finding dc had not done their work properly, had skipped portions of their work, had dawdled for lengthy periods of time, or had many corrections to make that had piled up over a day or two. Checking up daily on all that they do has fixed most of that for me. Now, it has become such a habit that it is no longer extra work for me. The children come prepared and expect to be checked.

I can empathize that the thought of trying to go back and fix things can be overwhelming - not to mention, fixing any poor work habits too that tend to crop up and take time to undo. The good news is it is fixable, simply by adding in some checkpoints each day. I encourage you that things can turn around more quickly than you think! HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[abrightmom]

Julie,

You are one cool Mama. Thank-you for the above post. I read every word and it is tremendously helpful. I am going to implement a few of those ideas this next week. We are in Bigger and though I am highly involved in every box there are still areas that I need to implement teacher accountability/check points with some of my DS9's work. You have also reminded me of the importance of periodically reviewing the many teacher helps Carrie has included in the guides. Oh, how I LOVE HOD guides.

THANK YOU!!!

[Sue G in PA]

Wow, thanks so much Julie! I was hoping you might respond. That was so very helpful. My 12yo started the year off right and he did his work...every last bit. I started out diligently checking his work (and that of his 13yo bro). We were all on track. And then I slacked. And so did ds. I stopped checking in and I guess he noticed. So he stopped doing narrations, and then copywork and notebook entries. He had the entire month's worth of Phillipians to copy (13 verses). He wasn't too happy when I caught up with him...neither was ds13. Now, we are back to daily checks. Your list of what you do with Wyatt was amazing. Julie, I'm to say this but I simply don't have that much stamina throughout my day...my week. I slacked in checking with my high school daughter and she is now behind...b/c of me. I became so overwhelmed that I almost gave up...checked out. And now, I'm finding myself quite the opposite...that box-checking, militant, "did you do your work?" sort of Mom and I don't like that either. The fun is gone. Sitting with them and really digging in to the topic is gone. It's "get this done" and "make sure you did that assignment" instead of let's talk about this and what did you learn and wow wasn't that fascinating. My 13yo hates HOD. There...I said it. He is not like his 12yo brother (and that's ok) who is my box-checking kid. Ds13 prefers a more stream-lined approach. I will not be continuing with HOD for him next year but will be for ds12. I simply cannot even bear the thought of NOT using RevtoRev! I decided to go a different route with ds13 for high school, but still have him sit in on the Bible and Science portion of RevtoRev as well as the State Study and Signers portion. Anyway, I still have some pondering to do for my younger kids in Beyond/Bigger and how I"m going to work that. I really am now leaning toward Carrie's suggestion about doing the left side of Beyond w/ all 3 and having ds10 do the right side of Bigger. I "can" keep running 3 guides, but I will burn out. I don't want that. And I have my 3yo to consider next year as well. So, thanks again for your response, Julie, and everyone else. Much appreciated!

[8arrows]

I don't know if it will work for you, but I read everything they are going to read independently the night before. This makes it very easy for me to have meaningful interaction with them throughout the day as they ask me things or comment on what they read. It also makes it very easy for me to check their notebooks and narrations. I do not enjoy the school day nearly as much when I have not read through the material. We usually talk about the material as a group at lunch as well. Don't get me wrong, I do get behind. My oldest two boys just went on vacation with friends and we had some major catch-up grading before they went. I know pre-reading the material is not required or even recommended, but since I have a larger family also, I thought I would share just in case it would help.