we take SO long to complete Bigger each day...

[farmfamily]

I think I probably should have placed my daughter in Beyond last fall. She is 7 1/2, in 2nd grade and she can do everything in Bigger - but it all takes her so long. If I'm not right there prodding her to keep going and re-direct her when she is distracted she doesn't get anything done. It can take her 45 minutes to go to the bathroom if I'm not reminding her to keep moving! I don't really think she's exactly trying to be naughty, but the concept of working efficiently is completely foreign to her. I've explained that if she works faster she will get done quicker, but that doesn't seem to motivate her. I've also tried timing her, but it just makes me stressed out that she's not finishing in time - she seems to act more or less the same. Doing unfinished work in the evening isn't really an option for me because my husband comes home only shortly before the kids' bedtime. On a good day school takes us 4 hours plus half an hour of piano practice. But with notebooking (she is a perfectionist about her work) it can take much longer. We were doing it half speed in the fall - and the day was over a little sooner, but we still had the same problems. She is perfectly capable of doing it all, but she doesn't stay on task - even if she's in her seat. I feel like I spend all day nagging her - and I don't know if I'm pushing her to do too much?

If you add in the 1 1/2 hours it takes to do LHFHG with my 5 1/2 year-old and half an hour on LHTH with my almost 4 year-old, and I end my days exhausted and incapable of doing anything else. We are now in Unit 10. I'm not sure if I should go back to half speed or what? In K she did LHFHG, but in first grade we did something else. I've wondered whether Beyond wouldn't make my life easier. I mentioned to her the idea of switching to Beyond and she said she loved the history in Bigger and didn't want to change! I really like all that we are doing in Bigger, too - but I feel frustrated!

I also considered doing Bigger half speed until her sister finishes LHFHG (we are now in Unit 18 - so it would be next fall) and then having them do the left side of Beyond together and my older would do the right side of Bigger - but I'm not sure how that could work.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Rees

[catbeth]

Well, I can tell you that you're not alone. Your daughter sounds exactly like mine. I have said before that it wouldn't matter how little work she has to do, she would stretch it out and make it fill the whole morning! For what it's worth, she has an unofficial ADHD diagnosis (unofficial because she's so young, and there's no point sticking a label on her when she's not in school, but she hits all the marks). I also suspect that she has some sort of auditory processing problem as well, because she is so noise sensitive and incapable of tuning out background noise. Unfortunately I cannot have her tested for that until she is 7.

I have adapted by giving her a quiet place to work (as in, a desk in a room by herself) and letting her do some of the boxes on her own. She really cannot handle any distractions, and cute little siblings are huge distractions! She does all the reading and writing herself, and I come in for whatever involves discussion or hands-on. This cuts down on the time that I have to spend focusing exclusively on her.

[LovingJesus]

I am not sure if I have any good advice. When my oldest was 7 1/2 we were doing ADV with MFW (very similar to Beyond) with note booking (very similar to Bigger) that took him FOREVER. I ended up modifying the note booking a lot. At age 8/2nd grade - but at the older end of 2nd - he can get through the work very quickly. It is amazing what a year can do for maturity and ability. He could do the work last year too, but he wasn't really ready for the work. Does that make sense? This fall he was ready for that type of work-load.

The only other thing I can add is that I have had to move my children around some to find the right fit in HOD for their abilities. It is a joy when it is a good fit, and a struggle when it isn't a good fit. Last year truthfully was a struggle. He could do it, but it was slow. I am continuously amazed by the amount of hand writing that he does each day, now that he is almost 8 1/2, without complaint; and how fast it goes.

[MomtoJGJE]

I would pick an order to do the boxes in for every unit and make a master chart for that so you don't forget Then I would figure out how much time I would want to spend in school with her. At 7, I'd probably say about 2 hours without a break would be good. Then each day I'd sit down with her and do the boxes in order until you hit that 2 hour mark. Then put everything away! The next day, start where you left off and work until two hours is up.... and so on. Once that gets to be no trouble, reevaluate. I wouldn't say to go above one day's worth of work in a day. I say that because when we clicked with Bigger with DD1 she could finish in about 2 hours unless she's having a bad day.

Does that make sense? It makes sense in my head, but I'm afraid it's not coming out right on here.

[farmfamily]

I would pick an order to do the boxes in for every unit and make a master chart for that so you don't forget Then I would figure out how much time I would want to spend in school with her. At 7, I'd probably say about 2 hours without a break would be good. Then each day I'd sit down with her and do the boxes in order until you hit that 2 hour mark. Then put everything away! The next day, start where you left off and work until two hours is up.... and so on.

Wow! What an incredibly freeing suggestion! I really like that idea. Has anyone else done this? This sounds like it might work for me - I think I will give it a try. We're really not in any hurry to finish Bigger after all. The only thing I'm concerned about is if she dawdles we might do hardly anything in a day - but I expect it would be easier for me to motivate her when we're just working for two hours or so. Is two hours really the "right" amount of school, you think? That seems so short to me now!

Thanks to the other posters too - I think a lot of it is a maturity issue - AND little siblings are a major distraction. This morning while my daughter was doing a math worksheet, I had her use noise-canceling headphones with a little quiet classical music to block out the constant noise of the others. I think it helped her stay on task.

I'm so glad I brought this up here! It really helps to hear from you all!

[MomtoJGJE]

I would be hard pressed to make a 7 year old do school for more than a couple of hours unless they were technically "done" with what you wanted them to do and were following their own interests and making it longer doing their own thing. I only make my almost 9 year old do school longer than that when she's goofing off.

[Carrie]

farmfamily,

Aren't the ladies on this board wonderful! They do such a good job of helping families talk through options to find the best fit..

In reading through the thoughts you've shared so far, I'm thinking that you've already tried Bigger half-speed and didn't really find it helped get your little honey's time down in her day to what we'd be expecting "typically" for Bigger Hearts to take each day. Also, keeping in mind that she is only 7 and 1/2, it is wise to look down the road a bit and see how that might play out in the coming years if you choose to continue down the HOD path. The jump from LHFHG to Bigger Hearts is a huge one without the stepping stone of Beyond in between (even if you did do a different program in between). It also sounds like her days, and yours, are pretty long right now. We don't want an exhausted mama or an exhausted daughter!:D

With this in mind, I'd definitely lean toward shifting your little honey down to Beyond and starting at the beginning of it. I would return anything you haven't already used in Bigger if needed to apply toward your purchase of Beyond. When you finish Beyond, you can choose whether to start back at the beginning of Bigger or whether to just pick up around week 10 where you're leaving off right now. Either option would work, but I often lean toward not repeating but just picking up where you left off (in order to keep a guide fresh). If your child likes the history from Bigger, she'd like the history from Beyond too.

I'm not sure if you were doing Spelling List 2 or dictation, but if whatever you were doing there was going well I would just keep going from where you were. I'm also not sure whether you were doing English 2 or not but with your daughter only being 7, you could easily wait on Rod and Staff until you head back into Bigger. If you were doing cursive, again you can choose whether to continue with it, or whether to shelve it until you return to Bigger. If it was going great, I'd keep going. If not, I'd shelve it.

As far as storytime goes, if you purchased a Deluxe Package Storytime Set for use with Bigger, you can actually use those books along with the storytime in Beyond (because both guides teach through the genres). If you found the Storytime books in Bigger too long, you could choose to return any unused books in exchange for shorter ones from Beyond.

I'm not sure where your daughter is at as far as reading goes, but if she was using DITHR and was struggling, be sure to take her back through the Emerging Reader's Set. You wouldn't have to start at the beginning of the Emerging Reader's Set but could instead begin somewhere in the middle (at whatever spot fit her best).

Feel free to pop back and share your thoughts. If you share a bit more about where she is at and how she is doing in spelling/dictation, reading, cursive, English, and math, we could advise you even better in those areas!

The reason I suggest moving to Beyond is that in looking down the road I think another year of maturity for your daughter will make a huge difference in how well she thrives in each subsequent guide. While she may be capable of doing the work in Bigger right now, if it is taking you many hours to pull her through her day it would be wise to let her mature a bit prior to heading into Bigger. It will also reap benefits in every guide after that. I'm not saying that you won't have to train her in completing tasks efficiently once she returns to Bigger, as often little ones who are easily distracted remain easily distracted. However, being a year older can help us know that the student really can do what we are asking and helps us rule out the possibility that he/she is just overwhelmed with tasks that are too difficult!

Blessings,
Carrie

[farmfamily]

Hi Carrie,

Thanks so much for your long reply. I know you must be really busy...

My daughter is doing very well with the spelling - she will finish the spelling list in Bigger next week. I haven't tried dictation with her. The spelling usually goes quickly unless there is a distraction from the three year old.
Her reading is also very good. She tested at halfway through fourth grade reading level - and she reads quickly, but clearly. She doesn't like answering questions and doing the work for DITHOR - but we have been doing level 2/3 about three times a week (though reading every day). I do all the writing for her in DITHOR. Outside of school she is an avid reader, but I know she just breezes past the things she doesn't understand, so I know it's important to have her read to me. Both she and I hate stopping in the middle of a chapter - so I know that adds to the length of our day, both in reading and storytime, depending on the book. She loves storytime and always begs for more.

She is a perfectionist and likes doing the cursive- but that is one of the things that takes a long time. In fact it is all writing and the things that she does independently that make our day drag on. I want to be able to give her a math worksheet or her cursive, or the written grammar, or copywork, or the vocabulary or the copying part of a notebooking page, and go and work with her sister, who is in LHFHG, or her brother who is in LHTH. But as soon as I'm not standing over her - very little seems to happen. Unfortunately, where ever she is in the house, she can hear their work. She often knows which Bible story I'm reading to her sister - even if she wasn't in the same room! Even if I am standing over her, writing takes too long, to my mind. Not because each word takes a lot of effort, but because her mind drifts off... I have to say "keep going!" I think it's possible the length of our day adds to her dreaminess...

The only other thing I wonder about going back to Beyond - is that her sister would be starting Beyond this fall if things go according to plan and then they'd both be in Beyond, but in different parts - would that be weird?

[farmfamily]

I had another thought. Suppose I put both the girls in Beyond right now?

With my younger daughter (5 1/2) it would look like this:

Stop LHFHG where we are - around unit 18.
Do all of Beyond with her sister except the LA box and the math. Instead of the LA, I would continue with the Finding the Answers and handwriting from the Fine Motor Skills box in LHFHG. Math for us isn't really an issue - we use a different curriculum which is working fine and I will continue with that. For reading she would obviously continue with the Reading Lesson.

When she finishes the fine motor skills in LHFHG (i.e. when she's 6) we would start in with the LA box from Beyond.

When we finish Beyond, I think I would have her go back to Unit 18 in LHFHG, but do the LA box from Beyond, continuing from where we left off. (I have another poetry book she could copy poems from).
Then she would move to Bigger at age 7 - hopefully more ready for it than her sister was - perhaps we could go half speed for a while.

I think she could handle the listening in Beyond - she already sits still and listens to her sister's Bigger Storytime books (She loved Baby Island).


For my older daughter I would do all of Beyond with her sister, doing the copywork from the LA box and doing most or all of the LA box from Bigger (i.e. continue on to dictation, continue cursive - I honestly think she would cry if I told her we had to stop practicing cursive - she is a little artist and prides herself on perfect handwriting!, and - I'm not sure about Rod & Staff 2 - it's working okay for us.) For math I would continue with our current curriculum, but figure out how much time I want to spend and - as the other poster suggested - just stop the lesson/worksheet when our time was up and continue the next day. For reading we would continue with DITHOR 2/3 with me doing all the writing & gradually move to her doing some or all of the writing.

Then when we're done with Beyond I would take her back to Unit 10 or 11 in Bigger, and move full speed.


Well, what do you think about that plan? I was going to have to buy Beyond in the fall anyway, and I'm sure it would be fine by my husband for us to buy it now instead.

[Carrie]

farmfamily,

Thanks so much for popping back to share a bit more. In thinking through what you've just shared, since the writing is where the "slow down" occurs with your sweet daughter, I definitely think a move back to Beyond (for most areas) would be great for your older daughter. This is because the amount of written work only increases as kiddos move up in HOD guides. Also, a year can make a huge difference in how ready a child is fine motor-wise and fatigue-wise to write.

From what you've shared, it does sound like your daugher fits well in DITHR. If you do choose to move her back to Beyond, I think you'll find you can expect her to do a bit of the writing in DITHR and slowly increase how much writing she does in DITHR. This is because she won't be writing nearly as much in Beyond as she was in Bigger. At this point, I would probably set aside the cursive workbook to pick back up when you return to Bigger. While she may be doing a lovely job, if she is still slow in writing in manuscript, then I would work on increasing speed there first through the copywork of the poetry in Beyond each day.

For spelling, whenever you finish List 2 (which is also in the Appendix of Beyond), I would move your older daughter into dictation. This will be another writing opportunity for your daughter to strengthen her fine motor skills. The passages are in Bigger Heart's Appendix, which won't be a problem since you already own the guide.

As far as English/grammar goes, I'm not sure what she's doing there, but if she is doing well with Rod and Staff English 2 you can continue. Or, if the writing in Rod and Staff bogs her down, you can wait to return to it when she picks Bigger back up and just do the grammar in Beyond instead. I would be careful though not to make English/grammar so writing intensive as it will add time to your day.

In thinking through whether or not you'd want to combine the 5.5 year old by bumping her forward to Beyond, I'd lean toward thinking not to do that since she would then have to mature so much prior to heading into Bigger. Also, going back to LHFHG will be too much of a step back for her after completing Beyond.

Instead, I think I'd just keep plugging away with your middle daughter in LHFHG. You could move to a 4 day week for her to slow her down just a bit, so she won't be so much on the heels of your older daughter. Plus, when your older daughter finishes Beyond, I think I'd just head back into Bigger at Week 10 (essentially jumping past the weeks you've already completed with her in Bigger now). This jump would also give you some space between the two girls so that eventually they will be a guide apart again.

Blessings,
Carrie

[MomtoJGJE]

I think Carrie's idea is good after what you've added! I would not move your younger one to Beyond yet...

One thing, if you want to keep doing English, is you can do it all orally for a while. And since it seems you'll still be doing DITHOR, after a little while you could let her copy what you've written into the student workbook. I would either drop the cursive for now OR just let her do it on her own time, for fun.

[farmfamily]

Thank you so much, Carrie, for your help. I talked to my dh and we have gone ahead and ordered Beyond!

I would still ask one thing - you'll probably recommend against it, but it's worth a try!

Suppose I start my older daughter halfway through Beyond (say about Unit 18), around the colonial times in history, which is where we reached in the history in Bigger. Then I would continue to the end of Beyond, and go to the end of LHFHG with my younger daughter. Then in the fall, I would be able to combine my daughters in the first half of Beyond - at least for a few months! - before I move my older daughter back to Bigger after she had completed all of Beyond. The reason I keep thinking about combining - if even for a short time - is that I know it would make my life so much easier if they had the same Bible verse, the same storytime, the same art project and so on and so forth. Also I myself wouldn't have to repeat Beyond within six months!

Thank you again. I am very much looking forward to (hopefully) having a more sane school day.

[my3sons]

I'm glad you've made the switch to Beyond - I think from all that you've shared - that this is going to be a great fit! I'm excited for you to begin Beyond. I've done Beyond and Bigger twice, and if I were you, I would go through Beyond from start to finish to take advantage of the continuity of the plans. Skills are incrementally taught, and this allows dc to begin to work well more and more independently through the guide. Doing the guides in order from start to finish has helped my dc learn how to work efficiently and balance their time well. I think you will be surprised how much easier it is to do Beyond with dd than it is to do Bigger. You've done a great job of working through LHFHG with her, and that will have prepared her beautifully for Beyond. Now you will be taking full advantage of that! The following year, by doing Beyond sequentially, you will have incrementally taught her the skills to do Bigger Hearts well. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[Tree House Academy]

I see that you did switch ti Beyond and I definitely think that is the right decision given her young age and thinking on ahead about the guides she will be going into.

I am short on time and I did not read through every single response, so please forgive me if this has already been stated. I was wondering how close you are to your dd during her school day. I sit at the school table with my youngest child (in Bigger) the entire school day (which averages 2.5 hours of seat work per day). He does often need re-direction and reminders...but I find that, if I get up and leave the room to try and do other things, I totally lose him (concentration wise). My older son can easily work alone without me in the room. He even does his school while listening to music sometimes... But the younger one is just not ready for that yet. If you aren't doing this already, you may want to give it a try and see if that makes any difference.

Best of luck to you!

[farmfamily]

Thanks for your responses. We are now eagerly awaiting our box! In the meantime we have been finishing out Unit 10 of Bigger in a relaxed sort of half-speed way. I saw something in another thread about paper for copywork - I had been using paper with wide-spaced lines and a dotted line in the middle (not sure the correct term for this). Today we tried just regular wide-ruled paper and my daughter wrote much faster! She actually copied six of Poor Richard's Sayings while I wasn't watching, and I'd only asked her to do one or two! We will definitely be writing with wide-ruled paper in the future. I don't know - some days she seems actually ready for Bigger - but I'm sure you all are right that down the road she will do better if we slow down now.

Rebecca - I don't usually sit with my daughter the entire time because I run out of time to do all the things I need to do (with two younger ones who needs lots of personal attention too) - but I have been trying to be with her more as she works. It definitely helps her move along if I am there! Some weeks the little ones are gone on Thursday morning, and that time is so nice in terms of getting the schoolwork done! But for the rest of our time lots of distractions are the norm! I will try to carve out the 2.5 hours to sit with her and encourage her.

I still am not totally sure about starting in the beginning of Beyond. We have been going half speed in Bigger - but we did storytime every day. I purchased both the Beyond and the Bigger deluxe girl book packs and we have already read both selections for biography, adventure, and historical fiction. We would love to move on to some other genres (which I already have in the book packs). Also, we did early American history in first grade, including an in-depth look at Columbus. Then when we began Bigger we started over with Columbus again - it seems hard to go back to Columbus for the third time less than six months later! I am still considering that option, but also considering starting around Unit 10 or so. I am going to look at it when it comes.

I think I will have her continue with Rod and Staff English 2 - that is going pretty well, but I will let her have the cursive workbook to work on herself if she wants in her free time. I think it will soon be set aside! Incidentally, we are doing the cursive italic, which is not I think such a challenge to master as the regular cursive - so far she's just practicing a few joins between letters she is already very confident with.

By the way, I do appreciate this wonderful curriculum! I've told all my friends, but nobody seems to have heard of it out in my neck of the woods!