Narration and Reading Comprehension

[christyg]

Good morning! I have a couple of questions about narration and reading comprehension. To start with, my daughter has just turned 8 and we are doing Bigger for 2nd grade. She is doing sooo great with it!

Her only problem area, though, is the oral narration. She loves for me to read to her, but when I mention the word narration she just seems to shut down. She will give a one word answer a lot of times, or just say nothing or "I don't know", like she doesn't remember anything that we just read. She is not disrespectful about it, she just can't seem to be able to do it. So, I am having difficulty deciding if she is getting the comprehension of the readings. I really think that she does when she knows that the narration isn't coming. I can ask her questions about it, and she does much better. I will add that she is somewhat shy and doesn't like to speak in front of others. She is a really good reader, though, and sometimes I will have her tell me about a book that she has just read to herself for fun (like Cam Jansen, Nancy Drew and the Clue Crew, etc).

I realize that narrating is a skill that takes time to master. I have been reading several posts from the board on narrating and I have gone back and reread the narration tips in the back of the Bigger guide. I'm just not sure how to get her to open up and do this. I will admit that I need practice with narrating as well. I tend to be a summary type person myself.

How have you motivated your reluctant narrators to do this? And, how do I know if she is comprehending what she is reading?

Another question. We live in Texas, where testing is not required, but I have chosen to do it this year, in May. I was going to buy a little test prep booklet, just to have her familiar with coloring in the little bubbles to the answers. I also just bought an Evan Moor 2nd grade reading comprehension workbook. On each worksheet, there is a short story with 4 questions that you fill the in bubble answer A,B,C, or D. I thought that this might help me gauge how her reading comprehension was for the time being until we got the narrating down. But, to be honest, I really hate the idea of adding anything to HOD. I would love to just do the program as is and see how she does on the test. What would you do?

I think that I am just sooo nervous about the testing, since we have never done it before. And, it's not until May! It is really stressing my school year thinking about it.

Thanks for any advice that you can give me!

Christy

[my3sons]

Oral narration does take quite awhile to learn to do well, and it is a skill that can be improved upon through our entire lives. I am wondering if she did Beyond Little Hearts last year? Day 1 of Beyond's Storytime plans has the parent modeling oral narration, and Day 4 of Beyond's Storytime plans has different ways to teach beginning narration skills. If she did Beyond last year, you may want to pull out your Beyond guide, and use those teaching methods with Bigger Hearts for awhile, just to continue to teach those beginning narration skills. If she did not do Beyond last year, you may want to mimic some of those lessons in Bigger Hearts. It helps me to think of oral narration to be how I would retell a part of a book I just read that I loved to one of my friends, or a part of a movie I just watched. That helps me share the big things that happened (as a summary would) while also adding personality to the retelling (as I share what struck me most). It took me awhile to get the hang of orally narrating too, but it was great for me to have to learn it, as then I was able to teach it better.

On narration days, I would start off just modeling a good narration for dd, and I'd keep it shorter. I'd stop at a point that was exciting and let her finish it with just a sentence or two. Then, you can begin the narration and go back and forth. She can tap you when she wants you to take it back over, and you can tap her when you want her to add to it (always at a very exciting part she'll remember). I would try to make this a joyful time, of retelling a story together. Little by little, she can take it over, and then you can help her with just the start of it, which is often the hardest part. HTH, but don't be discouraged - she will come out of her shell and begin to really enjoy narration if she sees it as a time to enjoy sharing the retelling of a story together, and then she will become more and more adept at narrating independently. Oh, and as far as the testing, oral (and later written) narrations are the best form of preparing for standardized testing. They require higher levels of comprehension, which is why dc often struggle with oral narration but do well with fill in the blank or multiple choice tests. Keep on working on oral narration, and you will be amazed at how much she grows in her reading comprehension!

In Christ,
Julie

[Tansy]

you can download actual real "released" Texas TAKS tests here. This is what they really look like So that is good helpful training.
http://scotthochberg.com/taas.html

Altho it is a big deal to get high scores for the PS, if the kids can't do it, it is a signal they may need special education help, not that they are failing. Once the child is "supported" by special education the test scores essentially don't matter. When My dd1 was In school here in TX, after she tanked a few of the prep exams. They tested her, qualified her for services and all tests after that she could do "open" book (develops research skills), Had cards that said, "how many more means you subtract" and "How many all together Means you Add." A multiplication chart where she could look up the answers. See what I mean... they just gave her all the tools she needed to pass (which is what she then proceeded to do).

Not to mention they gave her the modified tests which looks like: one paragraph then one question on the paragraph, no reading comprehension required... These types of tests are designed to show us areas of weakness in the child's work as well as in the child's teacher. I Did after school care for kids in PS every Thursday last year. Up to the day of testing the teachers were So focused on teaching to the test. After the tests were done, every one knew School was over for the year. They watch more movies in the last 2 months than the whole school year put together.

Your child is getting a quality education With HOD, If she tanks the test she may have learning disablites that need to be addressed. But take it from me don't stress. I been there, done that, got the T-shirt SOOO not worth it. It's not like you are ignoring her education. It's A Tool like a yard stick, its not like we live in China where these types of exams determine what you will do for the rest of your life.

If she does well Yippie!! if she doesn't Yeah! we know what needs to be supported. SO no need to stress.
Hugs,
Tansy

[my3sons]

Tansy - your response here is right on track! Testing is a tool for placement in ps, and your description of each step of this process is spot on. During my ps years of teaching, I tested many, many dc, and for tutoring, many more. The test is a tool that shows areas to focus upon for the coming year, and areas to celebrate as they are a child's strengths (which we often already know as homeschooling moms). I actually think it is better to teach test taking skills than to teach specifically to a test. For example, to teach how you read through a question thoroughly with an eye specifically for what it is asking. Then, the next thing would be to teach reading through all of the answers and choosing the best one, and moving on in timely fashion. It's also important to let a child know if the test is going to be timed, if the unanswered questions will be counted wrong and factored into the overall score (and if so how to use the last minute to just fill in the remaining ones with the same answer - i.e. B), what "none of the above"/ "all of the above" answers mean, what "B and C" or "A and D" mean (2 answers are correct), how to watch time counting down and manage how you spend your testing time in a balanced way, how to use the extra time to go back and reread those you may have been unsure of with a fresh eye, how to carefully fill in the circles and erase all stray marks, how to reason through an answer (i.e. "I know it's not A and B, so it's between C and D, which is more logical?"), how to go back and reread to look for specific answers within a reading selection, etc. This is actually more helpful than studying for the test many times.

Looking over some practice tests with a focus on test taking skills right before taking to the test would be helpful, but building dc's academic skills (such as reading comprehension, dictation/spelling, knowledge of history/science, story elements, etc.) using HOD's outstanding methods throughout the entire school year will do more to truly build dc's skill base steadily with solid retention than teaching to a test. What a good question, as many of us stress over tests (moms and dc both)! Anyway, thank you for your good counsel here, Tansy! From a person who has been down that road, your expertise and knowledge is so valuable.

In Christ,
Julie

[psreit]

Julie, thanks for the encouragement in narration. I have the same issues with Angie. When I want her to tell me about what we just read, she tells me the last part. I know she heard the early part, but she doesn't seem to be able to think back to the beginning to tell me what happened before the end. I can start it and she will add onto that, but she needs prompting for almost every part. We are in Beyond. How much detail should be narrated back? I don't want to model too much info. This is new to me as well, although, I gave oral book reports in Christian high school.

[Tansy]

Psreit,
My dd has been doing this for years. Only recently like the month of September 2011, has she suddenly switched from only narrating the last bit. Which means she was only repeating what residual is left in her short term memory. To now: starting at the beginning and getting about 80% of the material and not being able to remember the very last bit. I have been working "conversational" narrations (allowing leading questions and prompts like you would have in a normal conversation) with her for about 2 years, pretty much 5 days a week. We are using a very simple text, usually only about 3 paragraphs long, (New Practice Readers) on the advice of her ND therapist.

This is a most excellent shift for her, but note the amount of time it took to get her to this point. I have been very impatient, its been a long and frustrating road. On top of that I'm doing short term memory brain training things, and that diet for the spectrum symptoms she has, all contribute to her ability to narrate.

We've use a few tools over the years. For a while I was drawing a simple picture of the story as she read it out loud to me, (visual is her strength) she could then use the picture to retell me the story... still messy all mixed up but it's all in there. It was more important to trigger a response than get no response at all. A mixed up one is better than a response of "I can't remember." Especially when one look at a stick drawing could trigger parts of the story tumbling out of her mouth.
Next I started stressing "This is the beginning, middle and end.", when I read the story to her, then she would read it to herself and draw a picture of it. Then use the picture to help her, this is not cheating, she has short term memory problems getting her brain to respond correctly creates the pathways in her brain. The more she uses those pathways the more deeply grooved they become the easier it is the next time to use them. (Kids in Deaf families can sign wants and needs at 6 months of age... but when does a baby actually begin to speak? 18 months 2 years? it takes a long time to build those pathways, don't be discouraged if it takes a while).

Now were using key words. We started by her reading the story to herself, then I would read it with her. In each paragraph together we would come up with the key word and main idea. She would write them down. Then I would re read the story out loud, then she narrates still with prompts from mom if needed.
Were up to her reading the story, she then writes down key words herself, I skim it to keep her on track, listen and prompt if needed. I am continuing to narrate the story back to her at the end so she can see how it is suppose to be done.

I still can't get her to do Inferences, or other things like how it makes her feel (other than I lOVE ..... or I hate... topic of story) just yet but it's a one tiny step at a time thing.

MY child has a disorganized brain, auditory processing issues, and a lack of a short term memory all the different pieces are pulling her down, a crutch or 2 to help get her walking is fine. Remember separation from birth family causes trauma to the brain, some kids brains need time to heal and may not move forward till they feel safe all the time. Not feeling safe can put them into a constant adrenal high which can adversely effect the brain's ability to continue to develop. Once that is removed the brain then does develop, usually making huge leaps. Then settles down for a while then makes another huge leap.

Here is a blog post about this type of situation I wrote about just last week she is still fighting oppositional behavior but she is making progress.
http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID ... 2174704339

[my3sons]

Julie, thanks for the encouragement in narration. I have the same issues with Angie. When I want her to tell me about what we just read, she tells me the last part. I know she heard the early part, but she doesn't seem to be able to think back to the beginning to tell me what happened before the end. I can start it and she will add onto that, but she needs prompting for almost every part. We are in Beyond. How much detail should be narrated back? I don't want to model too much info. This is new to me as well, although, I gave oral book reports in Christian high school.

It is quite common for dc to be able to remember best the last section of what has been read. It helped my ds to give the example of the VCR tape (though maybe now they only know DVD's ). To get back to the beginning, you have to rewind. For an oral narration, you have to rewind in your mind back to the start of the reading too. I tried to show the thinking that goes into this while modeling my narration. I stopped after about a third of the reading and said, "Now, I am asking myself what were the most important parts of what I read so far? Well, it is that Wilbur and Orville Wright owned a print shop and put out a local paper. I'll have to remember that for this finger." (And I held up my index finger to show "1"). Then I read the next third, and said, "Now, I am asking myself what were the most important parts of what I read in this part? Well, it is that Wilbur and Orville Wright opened a bicycle shop, and learned from others that filling the air with tires was a successful way to make bikes more lightweight. I'll have to remember "1" (and I repeated the first part), and now I'll have to remember this for #2." (And I held up two fingers.) Then I read the last third, and said, "Now I am asking myself what were the most important parts of what I read in this last part? Well, it is that Wilbur and Orville Wright became interested in researching flying, and that others had crashed in their gliders. I'll have to remember "1" (and I repeated the first part), and "2" (and I repeated the second part), and now I'll have to remember this for #3". (And I held up 3 fingers.) Then, I said, "Now, it's time for me to share my narration, and I know just what I am going to share". Then, I did my narration, holding up "1" finger as I said the first part with a detail or two, holding up "2" fingers as I said the middle part with a detail or two, and the last part holding up "3" fingers as I said that part with a detail or two. This seemed to really help my dc, and at first they held up their fingers to do this until they began to be able to tell longer oral narrations, and the fingers weren't necessary.

I think it's important to know that they may not perfectly pick the big things that happened at first, and that's alright. The goal is not necessarily a summary narration, but rather a narration that has a good sequence and preferably something from the beginning, middle, and end. What stood out to our dc may (and probably will) be different than what stood out to us. This is the beauty of narration - each person gets to share what struck them the most, and really make the narration their own. Now, if a child shares something like "Katherine likes dolls" for their part of the narration (a part of the Wrights' story, but not an important part, it is helpful to lead dc to more of the main ideas of the story). However, encouragement is the best way we can lead our dc to become good narrators. So, balance the helpful tips with the "way to go's"!

Pam - for the age your little cutie-pie is, I'd shoot for around a 6 sentence oral narration at first - one from the beginning, middle, and end, and following the awesome oral narration exercise helps in the Beyond plans will lead her down the path of getting those narration skills down pat. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[psreit]

Tansy,
Thanks for your input. DD stores things in her brain alright, but when she gets talking sometimes, she will say things that don't make sense, because she starts putting pieces of different puzzles together. She even does that with her singing sometimes and even when she plays tunes on the piano. She will sing some words to one song and go right into another song, and another and another. It's like her mind is jumping from one thing to another. One thing doesn't have to do with the next, even though she may be referring to two legitimate things. Her brain is trying to process so many things at one time. Then she gets excited and starts saying non-sensible things. Then other times she will say things that are very 'grown-up' for her age. I think she stores everything! It's a matter of training her to take her time and think things through before she speaks. So, teaching narration is going to have to be done when she is in the calm mode and can focus on that one thing. Thanks for sharing.

Julie,
Thanks for the idea of holding up fingers for the different parts. That may be something that would help. Angie and I have some good conversations about things we read, so I know she is taking it in. We'll see how it goes.

[christyg]

Thanks so much, ladies, for the good tips!

We did do Beyond last year and she did good with the follow up questions each day. It's just the retelling it back by herself without prompts that has been difficult for her so far this year. We are just starting unit 9 in Bigger. I may have expected too much too soon. Maybe I just need to spend more time with her slowly getting rid of the prompts, and working our way to doing it without any by the end of the year.

This past week, I had her to do a few of the worksheets on reading comprehension just to see how she would do. Each page had a paragraph and then 4 questions with them. Out of 4 pages, she only missed one and it was because she didn't read the question right.

So, I am going to quit worrying about whether or not she is comprehending what she is reading, because she is getting it. I am going to put the worksheets away, and we are just going to start working on her being able to tell it back in her narration. Julie-LOVE the tip about using the fingers to help them remember!

After reading this thread and others, I am feeling much better about the testing. And, I am feeling confident in my decision NOT to add anything to HOD. We are just going to keep working at it and see how it goes!

Have a blessed day!
Christy