Repeating Math

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Larica
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:05 am

Repeating Math

Post by Larica » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:59 pm

Hi Ladies,

I was wondering if any of you have had to repeat a math level with your dc? My daughter has learned so much this year (first grade, Singapore 1A/1B), but I feel like it was too much of a struggle and involved too many tears. She often needed me to talk her through most of the problems in the workbook, even after we'd done the hands-on activity and practiced the concept. I gave her the 1A placement test and she ended up at 80%, but only after I circled problems she'd gotten wrong and had her go back and re-do them. They were wrong due to careless errors, not conceptual understanding. I haven't given her the 1B placement test yet, but I intend to tomorrow. I'm pretty sure she won't be at 80%. Adding/subtracting two digit numbers is really hard and she relies on finger counting a lot. Money is hard because the arithmetic is hard. Every time we have two quarters she gets stuck at 45 as the sum (does the 25 + 20 in her head and leaves off the remaining 5). All this to say that I don't think it would be wise to move on and cause further struggle. Do you agree? So, my options are:

1) repeat 1B, maybe get the HIG and extra practice book to supplement
2) switch to a different math program for a year to solidify some skills then return to 2A/2B in 3rd grade

Any suggestions? If I go with option 2, any ideas for a program that might help? DD is very visual and benefits a lot from manipulatives. Carrie's activities were wonderful! DD often had trouble carrying the concept from the activity to the workbook though. She has some special needs that come into play, although she has overcome many of her challenges. We had to regroup and use another handwriting program for a little while until things started to stick and then we went back to A Reason For Handwriting. But I digress :oops: Thanks so much for any input!

Blessings,
Erica
Erica
mom to 5, ages 7 to 15
Enjoyed LHTH to WH so far!

raceNzanesmom
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by raceNzanesmom » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:14 pm

Hopefully, Carrie or someone with experience can give more. I think I would work hard over the summer on really getting her facts down and see what fall brings. I, personally, wouldn't want to move on if she is consistently struggling to get 80%. We use Math Wrap Ups, math games, card games, etc to hit the facts/skip counting hard without it seeming like school work.
~Angie
Helpmeet to James for twenty six years
Mom to Race, 23- homeschool grad and Zane, 12- RTR

netpea
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by netpea » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:49 am

After finishing 1B we tried to move on to 2A and had trouble so we backed up and used a workbook called Total Math grade 1. It just helped to practice those skills. After we finished it we went back to 2A and have had smooth sailing ever since. Sometimes they just need to do more practice. I don't know if you should redo 1B or just do another 1st grade workbook for a while but it does sound like more practice would help before moving on.
Lee Ann
DD3 - LHTH
DD10 - no longer schooled at home
DS12 - no longer schooled at home

Have used LHTH, LHFHG, BLHFHG, and BHFHG
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cagrits
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by cagrits » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:20 am

Yes, yes, yes! My daughter struggled with math. I tried everything and she just could not get it. No matter what I did she could not retrain even her basic 1-10 addition facts from year to year. I ended up bringing her into the school district and having her tested for learning disabilities as she has high functioning autism. She was diagnosed with Dyscalculia. I really didn't know what I was going to do. I tried Singapore, I tried Saxon, I tried all of the hands on manipulatives. Finally I went to a seminar for math disabilities at our conference last year sponsored by Right Start math. They explained why so many children have trouble with numbers. They said things like why do we use a "0" and "1" in the and call it a zero and one but when we move it over to the tens spot we call it a ten. She said let's try this with the alphabet. The letter a is a and b is b but when we get to the tenth letter it will be ab not h. We won't call it a-b though it's a totally different letter that is not a or b and we will pronounce it differently. The speaker basically efficiently confused the parents in the seminar and then explained this is how difficult math is for some children. The way she was able to explain how confusing math is clicked for me. I understood how Abby was not able to make sense out of this. She couldn't get it no matter how hard I tried and I had tried for 4 years and had a 10 year old who couldn't add. So I decided to try Right Start. It worked. I am so thankful that the Lord led me to this as Abby has grown 2 years in her math ability and is now at the level where she can use Teaching Textbooks. Honestly I never thought we would get here. I cried at the end of this year when Abby finished her math program for the first time since we started homeschooling.

This is a pretty extreme example but it just affirms to me that as parents we have to keep trying and if one math curriculum doesn't work, keep searching. I did ask the school district what they would do about Abby's disability and they said they would just give her a tutor. So without homeschooling and finding this different curriculum I do not believe she ever would have been able to overcome this struggle. I am just so thankful that we are moving forward.

And what I love about HOD is that we can plug in the math that works for us! By the way, we will not be using RightStart next year, we will use Teaching Textbooks as Abby loves computers and is motivated to try to push herself to catch up. She is busy doing 2-3 lessons a day of Math 4 on her own right now as she wants to try to get into vet school so she has to be able to do alegbra, geometry, trig and one other higher level math in high school to qualify for the right college. I didn't think this was possible for her as she was doing 1st grade math in 4th grade this year but the Lord has seen us through and if she can get through Math 4 & 5 this year she will be caught up and on track for where she needs to be to go to a vet feeder school.

Good luck!

Jennifer
mom to 2 girls ages 11 & 8.5

my2guys
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by my2guys » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:08 am

If you substitute "son" for "daughter", I could have written your post. My ds did mostly fine with his math this year, but there were a few areas that seemed to give him some trouble - namely number bonds and word problems - especially when we got to double digits. I gave him the 1A/1B placement test a few weeks ago after we finished school just to see where he was at and he scored around 85% on 1A. (He actually did better on the 1B test - but I did have to give a little bit of explaination for a few of the word problems.) Anyway, after much research, here's what I'm doing: My younger ds is much more of a hands-on, kinesthetic, touch-things kinda guy and I was looking into a math with some manipulatives to use alongside Singapore. I ran across RightStart and really liked what I saw for him. Then as I read more, I realized that RightStart could help cement the very places where my older one was having trouble. So I discussed the $$ aspect with dh (it's not cheap!), and we bit the bullet and bought RS Level B for use with both my boys. I also bought the Singapore 1 HIG, Word Problems and Extra Practice for my older one. My plan is to use RS with my ds7 over the summer, along with the word problems - probably just one of those a day. We haven't started yet - we're travelling over the July 4th weekend, so I plan to start when we get home. I want to make it light - we pretty much take the summers off - and I think ds will think of RS mostly as "games". Then probably about a week or two before we start Bigger in the fall, I'm going to have him start to go through the Extra Practice workbook and see how he does with it. There's 40 excercises in there so he should be able to complete it within a few months. Once he's completed that, I'll give him the 1A/1B placement test again and see where we're at. If he seems to understand everything, we'll start in with 2A; otherwise, I'll re-evaluate and let you know. :wink: We'll probably keep using RS along the way during 2nd grade when we get time. I'm not sure I would have purchased the full RS program for just my older, b/c we like Singapore and plan to continue with it, but since it seemed to fit my younger guy so well for the early years I figured the older could use it too. I've also read recommendations to buy just the abacus and math games if you're using it as a supplement. I've heard discussions before about the 1B to 2A transition being a big one, so I'm planning on taking whatever time my ds needs to help "cement" level 1 in his brain. You are not alone! :D
Sharon
2017-2018
Ben (14yo) 8th with MTMM
and
Sam (12yo) 6th with RTR
Have already used and enjoyed: LHTH, LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, RTR & Rev to Rev

holdinon
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by holdinon » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:19 am

I'm sorry you guys are struggling with math. I can definitely sympathize! My oldest child has done at least 5 different math curricula :shock: I sometimes think there is nothing out there we haven't tried. Older children end up being the guinea pigs sometimes :wink: .

My younger kiddos have thrived in math. This is not to say there haven't been struggling times while waiting (and waiting and waiting) for concepts to sink in. But because I watched my oldest struggle so much (largely to my fear of not doing the "right" thing for her), I had learned to persevere, slow down when necessary, and even lay off of a particular concept for a while.

In Singapore (and other Asian countries), the math at this level is not even started until the year the child has turned 7. I think I remember reading in another post that your dd was just getting ready to turn 7 (or maybe just did). If I am remembering wrong, please correct me. But if she is only 6 or newly 7, it could be that she just wasn't ready conceptually for what was being taught in 1A/1B. Many (if not most) people use singapore at a grade level "behind"--or at least do the B/A combinations in a year rather than A/B. (For example, do 2B/3A in 3rd grade, 3B/4A in fourth grade, etc). Just something to think about.

I think, if it were me, I would probably do 1B again. I would, over the summer (assuming we were taking summer off), play lots of math games--particularly getting her strong in her number bonds up to 10. Then start totally fresh with 1B, as if we had not completed it already. I would expect a couple of months of maturity and rest would refresh both dd AND mommy :D . Then just take it slow when we hit a snag, and maybe move quickly through any parts that were previously mastered.

I personally would recommend not switching curricula at this point. While I do agree it is certainly better to switch younger rather than upper elementary, I also know the disaster that can be created from jumping around trying to find something that "works".

Carrie has a similar story with her older one that I do, in regards to all the switching around. I am sure there is a good thread somewhere where she talks about that. She's much better than explaining things than I :wink: Maybe someone can link it.

Blessings!
Angie
2013-2014 year:
Geography, CtC, Preparing, Bigger, Beyond, and Little Hearts (and surviving!)

(Completed LHTH, LHFHG, BLHFHG, BHFHG, Preparing, CtC, RtR, and RevtRev)

Carrie
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by Carrie » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:14 pm

Larica,

The ladies are doing a good job of talking through your options with you, and while you can easily switch to a different math program and use it with HOD if desired, before you jump to doing that I'll share a few things that may be of help to you as you ponder. :D

First of all, as was wisely shared in this thread, age will make a huge difference in how well Singapore math works for a child. I'm not sure how old your child is, but in Singapore children begin first grade at age 7, so begin 1A at age 7. If your daughter is just 7 now, it is very likely that she should have begun in Singapore Earlybird K last year instead and just now be moving into 1A. Maturity makes a big difference in how well students can think analytically. :wink:

Secondly, it's important to remember that much of what is in 1A/1B is new. So, typically in most levels of Singapore math, we would expect that 1/3 of the material is brand new and is only be introduced, 1/3 has been introduced the year before and is now being practiced, and 1/3 is ready to be mastered. This translates to a child mastering 1/3 of the text and just being introduced or practicing the other 2/3 with a huge amount of help and guidance from the parent. Think of it this way, if the child mastered all of what was in the text, they wouldn't need very many years of math, as they would master it all in a few years time! :D So with this in mind, an 80% retention at year end over all the material covered is actually doing quite well, especially for your child's age. This is why we don't recommend using the test as a measure at year-end but rather only for placement guidance for coming in to the right level. :wink:

Thirdly, another thing to remember is that we expect the child to need manipulatives, count on their fingers, etc. for the K-2 years. It is how they "see" math during that stage of learning. We also expect the parent to sit by the child and guide and direct and help the child to be successful, no matter how much help that takes. You can never give your child too much help in math. We want to avoid giving our child a math phobia, where the child somehow thinks he/she is not good at math and does not like math. The lessons in 1A/1B are very short! So, we would never want them to go on long or for the child to be in tears. If so, it is time to get in there and help and move quickly through the lesson. :D I always sit by my kiddos when they do math and help, guide, and direct. They score off the charts on their math standardized tests, so my help is not hurting them. :D

Fourthly, it's important to note that more drill on the same topics is often not what is needed when a child hits a tough spot in math. Often, what is needed is more maturity, and this comes with age. Let's take an extreme example to illustrate this. Let's say that you are learning to swim, and no matter what you do, you cannot learn to float. So, each day you are repeatedly placed in the pool and given all sorts of different directions and someone stands over you while you struggle each day with floating. At the end of many days, you still can't float, your instructor is upset with you, and now you've developed a real fear of not only floating but of water too. You think you cannot do it! If you'd have waited another year, and come back to the problem, without all of the additional fuss, it's likely you would have learned to float just fine. But now, you actually have a worry about it and a pit in your stomach about ever trying it again! :D We do this with math, when we jump in and drill and drill and drill, instead of letting maturity take its natural course. There's so many moms on this board who have shared that their kiddos had a tough spot in math, only to find out the following year that the child got the concept just fine (without doing any other work on it in between). What happened to help the child get it? He/she was just another year older, was now in the second or third exposure of the concept and was actually mastering it right when he/she should be mastering it. :D

Last, I'll wrap up with my own life lesson with my oldest son. I changed math programs for my oldest son regularly, always looking for the perfect fit. He was a mathy child, but hated doing drill and practice. In switching programs so many times, I actually hampered his mathematical learning and somehow made him feel that he was not good at math. The shocking part is that he is very good at math, in spite of me and my switching, but he doesn't think so! :D So with my next kiddos in line, we have done only Singapore. I cannot tell you the difference in their attitude and mine. My next son is in 7th grade next year and is finishing 6A and going into 6B. My third son is finishing 2A and heading into 2B. I've stopped rushing and just steadily follow the plans in the HOD guide each day. I have not added any additional drill, any additional programs, any extra guides, or any extra problems or practice. I am available and helpful with every math session, and I make sure I follow the text so I understand the Singapore way. :D If we hit a long lesson, I will split it, but I do not add more practice, but instead keep steadily moving forward. Remember mastery is NOT the goal with EVERY lesson (some lessons are only introductory and some are only practice). :wink:

So, before you jump ship, or drill facts all summer long, or add a bunch of other programs (all of which I have done too many times to count with my oldest), I would encourage you to ponder what I've shared above. I wish someone had shared it with me! :wink: It is not uncommon for young kiddos to have problems counting money. More than half of my third grade class (at a very affluent school) struggled with this every year! It is not uncommon for your child to need to use her fingers. We would expect her to use them and would encourage her to get out any needed manipulatives for every lesson too. :D It is fine not to have a child master the lesson before moving on. This will happen 2/3 of the time. Just steadily go forward a lesson a day. If your child was placed too high to begin with, I would likely back up to 1B and do it again slowly after summer. I would not cram it in during the summer, but rather take the whole first semester of the next school year to do it, doing it just as planned, so her next year would have her covering 1B/2A. :D Then, the following year she would do 2B/3A and so on.

The last thing to note is that some children are just not mathy. This means that they will have struggles in math no matter what program you use. So, the best cure for that is to sit and help and guide and direct and talk through each step. Keep the math sessions clipping along and be incredibly encouraging! :D I did it for 11 years in the public school with 100's' and 100's of students who weren't mathy either, and no "certain" program made them more mathematical. :wink: The goal for those students was ultimately to balance a checkbook and keep track of finances and to be able to use math in their day-to-day lives. Just keep in mind that there are varying levels of what is defined as "success" in math, as all children will not be engineers or scientists! :D No math program is perfect, and there are likely many good ones, but Singapore is the strongest I've ever seen to transferring math to real life application and in teaching mathematical thinking, and in the end those are the goals that I want may students to have.

This is much longer than I'm sure anyone desired, but It is a question near and dear to my heart after working with so many math students through the years! :D Hopefully, something in here will be of help! :D

Blessings,
Carrie

Mommamo
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by Mommamo » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:16 pm

Carrie,

What an encouraging post! I'm blessed that my oldest child has loved and excelled in math, but I do think we all need to be reminded of what was in your post every now and then. In so many things, all that is needed is a little time for our kiddos to mature a bit. With us it has been reading, but I think you excellent advice can be applied to so many things in regards to our children. I know I wasn't the one who asked the question, but thank you so much for your post. It was so helpful.
Momma to my 4 sweeties:
DD 14 - MTMM and DITHOR (completed LHFHG, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, took a couple years off, and now she's back!)
DS 11 and DD 9 - Preparing(completed 2 rounds of LHTH, LHFHG, Beyond, and Bigger)
DD 6 - LHFHG

Busymomma1
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by Busymomma1 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:05 pm

Carrie,
I appreciate your post, too, though I didn't ask the question. It's helping me to process my decision to switch over to Singapore. Plus, I totally have experienced what you said. I took a summer "off" with 1st ds who was having trouble mastering his addition and subtractions facts. Well, by the time we started into math again the next school year, he just "seemed" to have an easier time with it. Maturity is a big factor that is often overlooked. So I'm trying to "relax" a bit and not overdo it, as well.
Tricia
Married for 14 great years!
Mom to DD (10)
DS #1 (9)
DS #2 (6)

Larica
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:05 am

Re: Repeating Math

Post by Larica » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:04 pm

Thank you, thank you, thank you to all! I am truly humbled by the love and support on this board. It means so much that you all take precious time to answer questions like mine. I hope that I can do the same for others as I gain more experience and wisdom along the way. And now for true math confessions...I should let you all know that I was a high school math teacher before becoming mommy! I think that's part of what makes math tricky for dd and I. I get frustrated more quickly with her math difficulties than I do with any other subject. I think I also expect more than I should sometimes. I definitely need to make that a matter of prayer. Thank you, Carrie, for pointing out that it is okay for dd to use her fingers and for me to help her a lot. Looking back, I can see how I started the year that way but somehow backed off as we went along. Also, I sicnerely appreciate you telling me what you wish others had told you in terms of switching curricula. That's a hard issue, maybe because as moms we're driven to act on behalf of our children rather than wait and let time act for us. In all honesty, I am still struggling with the idea that maybe all dd needs is time and maturity. It seems so simple, whereas nothing about her development to this point has ever been simple (adopted out of a fairly neglectful situation at 17 months with a lot of medical and developmental issues...). Angie, Jennifer, my2guys, netpea and raceNzanesmom, thank you SO much for sharing your experiences. It is so helpful to hear what others have done and to realize that there are others in very similar situations. Two of you mentioned Right Start math, and I must confess that the use of the abacus really appeals to me. I wonder if I could teach dd to use it as a manipulative supplement to Singapore or if that would just cause confusion. Either way, we definitely won't be moving on to 2A in the fall. Maybe repeating 1B would even give dd a new sense of accomplishment in math. And yes, she just turned 7 last week, so maybe it makes some sense that she belongs in a lower level. Thank you also, Carrie, for explaining the 1/3 mastery, 2/3 new or practicing aspect to Singapore. That really helps a lot. I am so grateful for your participation on this board and for all the wisdom you share with us!

In Christ,
Erica
Erica
mom to 5, ages 7 to 15
Enjoyed LHTH to WH so far!

psreit
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by psreit » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:35 pm

Carrie wrote:The last thing to note is that some children are just not mathy. This means that they will have struggles in math no matter what program you use. So, the best cure for that is to sit and help and guide and direct and talk through each step. Keep the math sessions clipping along and be incredibly encouraging!............The goal for those students was ultimately to balance a checkbook and keep track of finances and to be able to use math in their day-to-day lives. Just keep in mind that there are varying levels of what is defined as "success" in math, as all children will not be engineers or scientists!
I know this is an old thread, but while searching for some creative ideas to help my dd with her math, I read this from Carrie's post. I needed this, as I have been letting Angie's math struggles bother me again. Then the frustrations come. I really believe this is where she is with math. I just have to keep reminding myself that God has wired her differently, and that it is okay if this is all she ever does with math. We are only counting pennies, nickels, and dimes right now, so we have a long way to go to balance a checkbook. But, these words brought a renewed spirit of patience as we work through these difficulties. God has given her special abilities in other areas, and I know He has a special plan for her life, no matter how far she goes in her math. We just need to help our dc become what God has created them to be. Even though this was not written for me, thank you, Carrie, for encouraging me with these words. :)
I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. III John 4
Pam
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mmschool
Posts: 36
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Re: Repeating Math

Post by mmschool » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:20 am

One thing to consider. Right Start puts out a book that is called something like activities for the AL Abacus. It isn't a curriculum, just a series of presentations on how to use their abacus to present different math concepts. I have found it really useful. I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, because it takes some understanding by the teacher, but since you have a math background you could probably use it well. Anyway, it would be a way to stay in the Singapore sequence, but use the abacus as a visual aid, as extra practice, or simply to show another way of looking at something when a child is stuck. My dd has benefited from it a lot. She has struggled even with K math, but I am good at math, so throwing in a different visual aid and then comparing the two sometimes helps. Here is one hands on way to add with marshmallows, here is the same problem in beads, how are they the same, how are they different? When she can draw the analogy she starts to see.

Lena

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