I'm a NEWBIE! Is it ok to SKIP a level in HOD?

[flydena]

We have never used HOD before, but we have done some very similar studies on our own using Charlotte Mason's ideas. So, we are familiar with narrating, dictation, notebooking, timelines/century book, poetry, picture study, nature study, music and art appreciation, etc. But, we just completely switched over to this type of schooling the last year and a half, so it's still somewhat new.

My question is....we have been studying ANCIENT HISTORY our entire homeschooling career, except for 2 years that were world geography. So, for FOUR years we've done Ancient History only. My children are going to be in 5th grade (an advanced reader) and 8th grade (not advanced, maybe slightly behind in reading).

I've looked at placement for HOD ALOT! And, I really like the idea of Resurrection to Reformation for a starting point, but am afraid that because we will be new to HOD it may be too much, though, I do want it to challenge them. I do NOT want to do Creation to Christ, though, as this is what we've studied for FOUR years already! And, yes, I know that it would be different with HOD, but even several of the books used in CtC would be repeats.

Would it be rediculous to possibly start them off with Preparing and SKIP to RtoR the 2nd year? Or, would Preparing be too easy for them? I really feel they can work at the same level with extensions if needed for my older child. I don't want to split them because I will also be starting Kindergarten with my youngest, and I work part-time, and feel that 2 programs will be difficult enough, and know I won't be able to handle or afford a 3rd program. I've also considered doing RtoR half pace for two years rather than one. I don't know!!!!! Please someone give me some input here!

The reason I'm afraid to go full force into RtoR is because my kids are not very self-disciplined. They are not good at narration yet, though I believe it will get better. They HAVE done some IEW writing before, but they are certainly NOT fluent yet. We have not done a formal language arts program until this year. I just believed what CM said about how they pick up the skills for writing and grammar through reading good books, so we've focused more on reading, copywork and dictation. The LA program that we chose is Character Quality Language Arts. I chose that because it looked like a fantastic program AND it teaches character traits, but because of notebooking, we are only using it at half speed. We have not done formal written narration, either. They have done notebooking pages using books we've read, though, so I'm not sure if that counts.

HELP! Don't know what to use, but feel strongly that the Lord has led us to HOD!

[blessedmomof4]

Hi Dena,
I can certainly understand you not wanting to repeat ancient history yet again. I would say that if your children both fit into the skills on the placement chart for RtR, you could try that at half speed to start. But if they do not both solidly place in RtR, I would suggest going to Preparing with Extensions for the older child, as it is a foundational year. However, I would not suggest skipping CtC after doing Preparing, as it builds up the skills needed to succeed in RtR, especially narration both oral and written. Perhaps if you reevaluated the children after they completed Preparing and they truly fit in RtR at that time, it might be possible to skip CtC. With HOD, each guide is SOOO much more than a time period, though. Praying as you make your decision

[flydena]

Thank you BlessedMomof4. However, I want to bump this back up because I'd really like MORE feedback. I thought I'd made my decision, but after seeing Carrie's recent posts answering common questions about HOD, I'm questioning myself and my kiddos skill levels again!

Now, I'm wondering if I should maybe take my 5th grade (10 year old) at half speed, and my 8th grade (13 year old) at full speed with RtR? Has anyone ever done that? My biggest concern with half speed is that I fear we will always have to go half speed (for every guide), or else the work will seem DOUBLED or overwhelming if we bump it up to full speed. Is this a legitimate concern, or is taking it slow when just beginning HOD for the first time a better way to ease into the "newness" of the program?

I'm also reconsidering the possibility of even splitting them up. I'm thinking of possibly placing DD10 in CtC and DS13 into RtR. But, because we have covered Ancient History for so long, I fear my DD will become bored with it...though I'm not sure she got nearly as much out of it as my son did. After reading Carrie's new posts, I feel she may have been one of the "tag alongs" with him, rather than gaining personal knowledge for herself. I don't doubt that she DID LEARN, but I'm not sure she gained as much as she could have.

So, thoughts or suggestions anyone?

Thanks so much! I love this board!
Dena

[doubleportion]

We did quite a bit of Ancient History before coming to HOD and I was worried about repeating things, including some of the same books. But my dd (4th grade) had no problems when we switched to Preparing. I know you have heard it before and it seems hard to believe but the way that HOD uses these books IS really very different. I think Preparing might be a great place to start with your 2 dc. You could do extensions for the older and use the Self Study Deluxe Package with your 5th grader. I think you will find that HOD is sooooo much more than just the history. Other programs focus soo hard on the history. But with HOD history is just one part rather than the entire focus. The science, poetry study, and so many other things are so wonderful in PHFHG! Finally, Preparing would get your kids more comfortable with the narrations and independent work and gives you all the specifics of how to do that. If you jumped right into RtR the work might be more than they could handle. The guides really do pick up speed with quantity of work and level of independence required. I think if you went with PHFHG you will love it!!


Edie

[my3sons]

Can you do me a favor? Could you print 2 copies of the first page of the placement chart, one for each of your dc? Then, can you fill out a separate placement chart for each of your dc, circling where they fall in the columns, and completely (for right now) throwing out the history cycle? Then, can you share where each of them individually place, and some details about each of them with the placement chart in mind? Next, could you print the first week of plans for each guide(s) they placed in, and read through the "I" boxes and share your thoughts about that? Keep in mind, if boxes are marked "I", the student is to be doing the reading, and that is a very important part of the learning to consider. In other words, if the reading or writing is going to be too much for a student, and you are thinking tweaking will be necessary, then you may want to consider an earlier guide. I would love to hear the results you come up with by doing these few little things! It has been very helpful for me to clear my mind and think of just one child of mine at a time when I look at the placement chart. I have so much more clarity in placement then, as opposed to just looking at the chart for everyone all at once. I know this seems to be a small thing, but really, I do think it makes a huge difference! If you get a chance to share what you find out, that would help me feel more confident about giving advice.

In Christ,
Julie

[flydena]

Okay, Julie, I have looked at the placement chart for each individual child and looked at the "I" boxes in the week at a glance and here are my thoughts:

My 10 year old DD will be going into 5th grade. She reads independently and enjoys reading. We have never used Drawn into the Heart of Reading, but plan to this coming year, and I do already have the TM, and student books 4/5 and 6/7/8. I looked through both student books, and feel that she could probably do either one, but since it's new, and because she is not in 6/7/8 grades, I'd lean more toward the 4/5 level. Though I'm not exactly sure what "formal literature study" is, I believe we probably have done it. (If it is not just reading a book, but rather taking apart the meanings in passages of the book). She has not done ALOT of that, but she has been exposed to it. She can do copywork in cursive, has done some dictation, can write short narrations, and has done some creative writing. However, she has only had an introduction to grammar and does NOT easily recognize the parts of speech. She has never done diagramming. So, I would say she places in CtC or RtR for the reading, CtC for Writing, and Preparing for Grammar. So, I believe her best fit would probably be CtC, but she is sort of all over the chart, so I'm not for sure. I did look at CtC's "I" boxes in the week at a glance and feel she could probably do well with all of them except for maybe the 5-8 sentence written narration. We have done oral narration quite a bit this school year, and some notebooking on our readings, but we have not done alot when it comes to written narrations. I have also purchased Rod & Staff level 4 for her, and have already gotten advice to do it half paced, and I'm comfortable with that.

My 13 year old DS will be going into 8th grade. He reads independently, but struggles with more difficult readings and does not enjoy reading. He has also never done DITHOR, but I feel he could also do level 4/5 or 6/7/8. He has definitely done many discussions with me about the meanings in passages of literature, though as I've said, he does struggle with comprehension depending upon the vocabulary in the book. He does love to ask questions and draw connections with the text though. (In other words, I think he is good at critical thinking.) He does not like to write in cursive, but he can. He does pretty well with dictation and is capable of writing longer narrations, though he doesn't LIKE to. He has also done some basic outlining, and enjoys writing lyrics to his own songs (more like creative writing). He is familiar with the basic parts of speech, and has begun proofreading for mistakes. He has labeled parts of speech before, but has not diagrammed like R&S does. I believe he could do either CtC or RtR, he's kind of right in the middle. But, I'm wondering if I think that just because he doesn't LIKE to do some things, not because he is not capable. I looked at RtR's "I" boxes and feel he is capable of all of it, I'm just not sure he will WANT to do the writing required for the written narrations. I have purchased R&S level 5 for him because of advice I'd been given, and feel this is probably a good place for him to start. I'm not sure if we should take it at half pace or full pace, though. I've considered both options and still have not decided.

So, there you have it! I'd love to hear your thoughts/suggestions!

Dena
P.S. I also will be teaching my preschooler with LHTH.

[my3sons]

Thanks for the great details you provided for each of your dc - that helps so much! For your dd, it sounds like she places quite squarely in CTC, with the exception of R & S English, which she can easily do half-speed R & S English 4 as you said. DITHOR's formal literature study involves prereading strategies, comprehension questions at the higher levels of analysis, moral discernment comparing Biblical people's lives to book characters' lives using Godly character qualities, vocabulary, and story element studies (i.e. plot, setting, characters, compare/contrast, etc.). I agree it would be a good idea to have dd do the 4/5 level, with whichever books (of your own choice) or book sets (within DITHOR's packages of books) you feel fit her reading level best. She can grow into the written narrations, as well as the increased writing within the History Student Notebook. I think she'd be well placed here.

For your ds, I think he also places in CTC. I am thinking RTR may be too much for him with this information you shared...

He reads independently, but struggles with more difficult readings and does not enjoy reading. He has also never done DITHOR, but I feel he could also do level 4/5 or 6/7/8. He has definitely done many discussions with me about the meanings in passages of literature, though as I've said, he does struggle with comprehension depending upon the vocabulary in the book... is capable of writing longer narrations, though he doesn't LIKE to... I'm just not sure he will WANT to do the writing required for the written narrations...

I think the most difficult book in the CTC Economy Package is Guerber's "The Story of the Ancient World". If both dc can read this well independently, they will be fine with the reading in CTC. Here is a link to a PDF of a 2-page spread of that book, so you can have each of your dc read it separately to do a quick check to see how they do...
http://www.nothingnewpress.com/guerber/ancient26-27.pdf

I think ds can do DITHOR 6/7/8 and R & S English 5 full-speed. You can decide which books you feel fits his reading level best and use those. I have an idea to consider - could you start CTC with the 2 of them, and give it a month to see if each is doing well with it? Then, I believe it will become clear if dd should go half-speed, or if ds should move up to RTR, or if they are both accurately placed. I am conscious of your mentioned you've done the ancients before, and I do understand your thoughts there. I am thinking that by beginning where each of your dc truly places though, you will have an excellent year not only this year, but for each year to come. I so want this for you! I have been thinking that while the core of the program is the ancients, the way it is done, along with the notebooking will feel quite fresh I believe. While history is indeed important, many other things will be studied as well that are not so history-related, resulting in your day feeling varied and new. For example, "Write with the Best" is not history related. All of the DITHOR books dc will be reading are not history-related. You can choose a Storytime read-aloud set that is not history related (either boy interest or girl interest or a mix of the two if you'd rather). The Robert Frost poetry is not history related. The Bible Quiet Time studies Phil. and the
"Illustrated Family Bible". I think you would find there is quite a variety in the day!

For your ds, do you think he can comfortably read the extension package? If the increased amount of reading he may be doing (due to the history/science/Bible reading in CTC and the DITHOR reading he will be doing), will be enough of a challenge that the extensions may just be too much, then I would not get the extensions. In eighth grade, dc are often able to just choose their preferred method of writing - whether that be print or cursive. I think you could just let him choose which he preferred, and this small thing may make a big difference in the amount of writing he is willing and able to do within the day. Proper placement is so important, and it can make or break a year. As important skills are taught incrementally through the years within HOD, I would place dc where they place best skillwise, and not skip a guide. Skipping a guide in HOD would be similar to skipping from a beginning swimming class to an advanced swimming class, with no intermediate class to bridge the gap. This often leaves dc in over their heads. So, all in all, I do think CTC for both dc would be an accurate placement, but you do know your dc best, and this is just my opinion. So, what are your thoughts about all of this now? Did this help or make things more confusing? I hope it helped somewhat. I have prayed for clarity for you as you choose the best placement for each of your dc.

In Christ,
Julie

[flydena]

Julie -

Thanks for the response and especially the prayers!

I do want to mention that we switched over to a CM education pretty formally this past year and a half, so started doing narrations. However the way we did it was that I read aloud from our history book choices (I pieced together my own curriculum/books using TruthQuest History and Heart of Wisdom). One of the book choices was Guerber's Story of the Ancient Greeks. It is more difficult and looks very similar to the Ancient book you linked me to. They both could narrate back to me the portions of the story I read. I'm sure I did not do narrations as HOD does, nor did we do many written narrations. The big difference I see in HOD (without actually seeing it in person LOL) is more reading on their own and narrating back. We have done this with Science (Apologia Elementary Science), however and they do well with that as well (atleast in my opinion). I'm not sure I'm doing it right because this was our first real year of a CM style education! I will have them read what you suggested on their own (individually) and see how well they can tell back what they've read, and then I'll pop back in and let you know.

I have a bit of a fear. My son feels "stupid." He is not, and I constantly tell him he's not, but I've been a curriculum "junkie" and switched alot looking for the BEST, and because of this he had gaps in math (we finally found a good fit and he finished 4 levels in one year, which he is now feeling much better about), we haven't done alot of GRAMMAR because trying to follow CM's ideas, I was waiting until upper grades to tackle that. He has however done much more than my DD because I didn't find out about CM until after he'd already done some GRAMMAR. And, we've not done alot of formal reading programs (because I didn't realize they needed to (GASP!) after phonics instruction was over and they were able to read chapter books, though the books I've chosen have gotten progressively more difficult. I've made many mistakes, but my DS is begging to be CHALLENGED, and not be at the same level as DD. He feels like he is way behind because the GRAMMAR is level 5 (even though I've shared with him that levels 7-8 are high school worthy). You probably should also know that because he has not felt challenged he has become lazy (which is the reason he does not WANT to read on his own nor do alot of WRITING). He is the PERFECTIONIST type personality who likes TESTS because he likes to SEE he is making A's. The CM methodology does testing differently so he can't GAGE his level and though it is a superior way to learn, he doesn't like not knowing where he stands. I REALLY did not want to split them, more than anything because of FINANCES, but I also want the best for each of them, and now feel that splitting them not only could be beneficial to them each individually but will also give my son a feeling that he has finally moved past where his sister is. (Does ths make any sense?) I don't want to pass him into RtR though, if that is going to be too difficult because that will also make him feel "stupid." See where this is a HARD call? When I told DS that we would finally be moving on past the Ancients (BEFORE I read Carrie's recent posts), he was excited, because he truly has studied ANCIENTS alot! And, my goal in doing the ANCIENTS for so long was that I wanted a STRONG BIBLICAL FOUNDATION, and I believe he does have that and understands that History is God's Story and different cultures throughout time have displayed the people's response to His Story. My DD who has just tagged along in our history (though has certainly learned some) is OK with staying in Ancients (even though I wasn't sure she would be) and I think that would be good, as I'm not sure she has made the connections that my son has. I hope this is making sense!

Well, right now my kiddos have some friends over so I can't give them the Guerber reading test, but when I get their attention for a bit I will do that, and pop back in to let you know how that went!

Thanks for listenting to my concerns and helping me process through all of this!
Dena

[flydena]

Okay, I've given my son the Guerber test. He read most of it with ease, correcting himself on a couple words and only pronouncing two words incorrectly without making corrections. He did skip over a few words: 'and', 'had', and 'was.' There was one word he didn't know what it meant...smelt. He was able to tell back what he read pretty thoroughly - (however he was very familiar with the story as it was a Biblical story about Cain and Abel, and this year was his FOURTH year in Ancient and Biblical history). There was one word he didn't know what it meant...smelt. Like I mentioned in my last post, I did not realize the importance of an actual reading curriculum until this year, and am completely embarrassed to even say that! He learned to read in a private school in Kindergarten and First grade, and since then I've only had him do one year of an actual reading curriculum. He has done some reading with comprehension guides as well, so I guess that probably counts, and some book reports, but I haven't known the importance of LISTENING to my kiddos read aloud (except with my daughter because I actually taught her to read with a phonics program...and when they are first learning, you do have to listen to them and make sure they are sounding the words out right, etc., but since he already knew how to read, I did not listen to his reading much). Oh how I wish I'd have found HOD before now!


Something else I've been thinking about since my previous posts....when I say that my son has difficulty with some of the read alouds and comprehension of vocabulary, it's probably because the books I chose to read aloud were TEEN/ADULT level. Again, following CM's idea of reading difficult books aloud to help the student stretch their vocabulary and comprehension. For example, some of the books I chose were: City of the Dead by T.L. Higley, The Red Headed League by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (this one was very difficult...even for me), Finding God in a Galaxy Far, Far Away by Timothy Paul, Believing God by Beth Moore, and Humility: True Greatness by C.J. Mahaney. I don't know if you are familiar with any of those books, but I would read them aloud and then we would discuss anything I wasn't sure he was understanding. With some of these books, I got that "deer in the headlights" look, but with others ESPECIALLY City of the Dead, I was begged to read more and asked to please not stop! I am saying all of this to help you better understand what we have done, in hopes that you will be able to give the best advice. I talked with him tonight about the difficulty that RtR might have in it, and how I am praying for direction and asking advice from other more experienced HOD users as to what would be his best placement. He knows that I want to do what is best for him and I'm sure will comply with whatever I choose.

I haven't yet given the Guerber test to my daughter as she went to spend the night with a friend. Once she does the reading, I will post about her as well.

Thanks again for reading my LONG posts! Oh, I do also understand now why skipping a HOD level would not be wise. When I originally posted, I was thinking more about the history time period than the skill level. I get it now, it's way more than the history! I'd love to hear your thoughts about my DS and thanks in advance!

[pjdobro]

Dena,

I don't have any advice about placement, but I just wanted to say what a dear, sweet boy your ds is. How wonderful that he is willing to do whichever program you feel is best even it is involves ancients after 4 years of ancients. What maturity that shows! I'm hoping that RTR works out to be a good fit for him. It sounds like he would really enjoy it. I'm sure he'll end up enjoying CTC as well if that is the way you go, but I'm thinking his excitement and enthusiasm will be much higher with RTR at least at the first. I'll be praying for wisdom for you.

[mamas4bugs]

I don't really have any advice, but I did want to ask--have you ruled out Preparing for your younger child completely? We did Preparing with extensions when my oldest son was in 5th grade, and he says it was his favorite year so far. We had so much fun! I was just wondering if you could do Preparing with your younger child and maybe RTR with your older one. That way, no one has to do Ancients again, your younger child can work on skills (we really felt like Preparing was a foundational year ), and they aren't in the same guide.

Although, I agree it shows great maturity on the part of your children to be willing to do Ancients again. Hoping you find the right fit!

[flydena]

Thank you ladies! You are sweet. My son is a great young man when he wants to be.

And, no, I haven't completely ruled out Preparing for my dear daughter. I've actually considered it, but do feel she probably places better in CtC. I guess it depends on what I decide for my DS. I really think it would HELP my DS to not be so discouraged if they were in separate guides, though, financially it would help if they were!

I'm going to keep praying, and hope that Julie or Carrie pop back in and give their thoughts. I do still need to give my DD the Guerber reading as well, and see how she does.

I appreciate the encouragement and wonderful words about my son. My goal more than anything is to bring up children who love the Lord and that have wonderful character. The training never ends, but it is good to see the fruit from it sometimes.

In Christ,
Dena

[my3sons]

Thanks, Dena!

I think that as long as your ds is up for a bit of a challenge and knows that he is going to have to really put his heart and mind to work this year, he can do RTR. However, if you are only going to get 1 program for the 2 dc, then I'd say it has to be CTC, as there is no way I'd have dd do RTR yet. Doing PHFHG with your dd is still an option, and then she'd do CTC the following year, but that would give a bit of a break between the ancients studies as well as give her some excellent foundational skills for the years to come. I think putting a little distance between the 2 so your ds can soar at his level and your dd can soar at hers would be great! This would also help alleviate doing the ancients again this year, as you have done it for years past already and are all ready for a change. Normally I try to completely take the history time period out of the decision in placement, but as your dc have done much more than 1 year of the ancients, and as they seem to be adequately placed in RTR and PHFHG (possibly with extensions for dd) already, I think it will be just fine, provided dd does CTC the year after PHFHG, as this will incrementally move her along in her skills in each subject area. What do you think though? I'd like to know your thoughts after prayer, talking with your dc, and considering the placement chart and guides' plans. I think we are getting close here!

In Christ,
Julie

[Carrie]

flydena,

What a terrific thread! You have done an amazing job of sharing about your kiddos, and I can glimpse what a special mom you are and what special children you have. You are a gift from the Lord to them!

From what you've shared, I can say with quite a bit of certainty that if I were in your place, I'd look toward placing your son in RTR and your daughter in Preparing Hearts. I think this will give your son the chance to spread his wings and really fly. I also think this will give you terrific cuddle-on-the-couch and enjoy every minute of a guide with just your daughter alone-time, as she enjoys having you all to herself!

There are many wonderful CM skills taught incrementally in Preparing Hearts that would enrich your daughter's learning, and she can as independent in Preparing as you desire her to be. CM says a child the age of 9 on up who can ready her own material should. So, she could read her own history if possible and would also do her own science. Plus, she'd have the extensions too. This will also allow her to gain some true independence in an incremental way and be very successful with that. My second son in line could definitely do a harder guide but truly thrives with the guide placement he is in and turns out really thought-provoking work. He is artistic and being placed where he is allows him not to be rushed in his day. From what you've shared about the 3R's, I think your daughter would be well-placed in Preparing Hearts. The following year, I would plan on moving her into CTC, as one guide builds upon the previous guide so well. If, at the end of Preparing, you felt she needed more challenge than CTC offered, you could assess again and see if RTR would be best. I do think you'd find that the way the ancients are done in CTC would feel very different if your daughter was doing her own readings. Plus, the way HOD does the ancients is truly different from what your daughter has likely had in the past. But, you wouldn't have to cross that bridge for awhile, if you did lean in the Preparing Hearts direction now.

If, on the other hand, it is your heart's desire to combine them, then I think that CTC will be the best fit for this. You can honestly go either way, but I'm feeling a bit from what you've shared that it may be time to give them a chance at their own guide?

Blessings,
Carrie

[flydena]

Julie or Carrie -

Ok, now my DD has done the Guerber reading. She didn't do nearly as well as I'd hoped! She skipped over several words, and also put in words that were not there. Then, when I asked her to retell, she wasn't able to retell much at all. She just kept saying "I don't remember," or "I don't know." Even when I asked her questions about the reading, she had difficulty remembering. Narration is still fairly new. However, she can tell me about her Apologia Science readings well, but I believe those books are written on a 4th or 5th grade reading level, and I'm not sure what reading level Guerber's books are written. (But, I know it is a more difficult read.)

So, after knowing this, would you all suggest I start her in Preparing? DD doesn't care where she starts, (I think because she's always kind of tagged along with DS's learning). DS does care, and I think as long as he's NOT in the same "level" as she is, he will be o.k.

I also had my son look at a copy of the Placement Chart. (I had crossed through the age ranges and the Program names, so that he couldn't choose based on those). Then, I had him initial on the chart every box remaining IF he thought HE COULD DO those things. (NOT based on if HE LIKED TO DO them or not!) ! He initialed through RtR on every one! Yippee! I think if he puts his mind to something, he certainly can accomplish it. I did tell him that he didn't need to know the specifics of diagramming because he would learn it, as long as he knew the parts of speech (and he does...he has labeled prior to this coming year when we will start R&S).

So, if you think DD will do okay in Preparing and DS will make it if he works hard in RtR, then that is what I think I'd like to try! I'll probably be posting some questions about Preparing (as there seems to be more book choices/packages, and I don't know what to choose,) but I will wait and see if after seeing how my daughter did on the Guerber reading you feel Preparing is a good place to start for her!

Thanks for all your help! I truly appreciate your walking through the options with me.

In Christ,
Dena