We are new to doing narrations the HOD more Charlotte Mason way. My dd is still struggling with oral narration in big chunks. This past week she was to do the 3-5 sentences written narration for Unit 3. I am posting a picture of what she wrote. I didn't want to discourage her, so I just let her go as long as she wanted. Is this too much? Should I be keeping her to a more summary type narration on these or what? I am not sure if I am directing her in the right way. If she is writing a lengthy written narration, should I correct it for spelling, grammar etc and have her rewrite it with corrections?
Help!
Edie
? Written Narration in Preparing?
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doubleportion
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? Written Narration in Preparing?
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- Unit 3 written narration smallest.jpg (235.18 KiB) Viewed 3275 times
dd 13 -Rev2Rev (enjoyed PHFHG, CTC, RTR)
ds 8 -Beyond
ds 6 LHFHG & ds 2 & ds 6 months
4 waiting for us with Jesus
ds 8 -Beyond
ds 6 LHFHG & ds 2 & ds 6 months
4 waiting for us with Jesus
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striving2Bprov31
- Posts: 226
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Re: ? Written Narration in Preparing?
I think her narration is WONDERFUL...especially for a 9yo. who is new to CM/narrations!! I really mean this.
Should you correct spelling, grammar, etc.---No. Absolutely not. At least not as young as she is.
The goal with narration is for the child to simply learn to form a relationship with the "information" in the lesson (what she listened to or read), and the retelling of that that she learned. We want to allow the child to simply make connections with whatever parts of the lesson that became meaningful in her mind.
I never correct grammar or spelling in narrations. After studying Charlotte Mason, I believe that that is what grammar and spelling lessons are for!! Narration is meant to serve a different purpose...not to be a spelling/grammar lesson.
I also don't think that we should "stop" a child from narrating if it gets to be long. Let her go with it!! All the more excercise for her little mind!!
Charlotte Mason also encouraged us to not "lead" the narration for the child by asking a lot of detailed questions. To do that would be to "get in the way" of the child forming her own relationship to the information in the lesson. Charlotte recommended to begin narration by asking the child, "Tell me everything you can remember about ______."
HTH.....and hope I am not being too bossy!
DD seems to be doing great to me!!!
Should you correct spelling, grammar, etc.---No. Absolutely not. At least not as young as she is.
The goal with narration is for the child to simply learn to form a relationship with the "information" in the lesson (what she listened to or read), and the retelling of that that she learned. We want to allow the child to simply make connections with whatever parts of the lesson that became meaningful in her mind.
I never correct grammar or spelling in narrations. After studying Charlotte Mason, I believe that that is what grammar and spelling lessons are for!! Narration is meant to serve a different purpose...not to be a spelling/grammar lesson.
I also don't think that we should "stop" a child from narrating if it gets to be long. Let her go with it!! All the more excercise for her little mind!!
Charlotte Mason also encouraged us to not "lead" the narration for the child by asking a lot of detailed questions. To do that would be to "get in the way" of the child forming her own relationship to the information in the lesson. Charlotte recommended to begin narration by asking the child, "Tell me everything you can remember about ______."
HTH.....and hope I am not being too bossy!
DD seems to be doing great to me!!!
Re: ? Written Narration in Preparing?
Edie,
First off, I'll just say that your honey's narration was great, and you should be so proud! You could just continue as you're doing with the help of the tips from the Appendix titled Written Narration Skills as your guide.
Next, since you asked such good questions I'll just share a bit about CM and her progression of skills, so you (and everyone else who wonders about these same things) can see what we're looking for in a written narration. This is likely much longer than your question warrants, but since we're on the topic I'll share anyway.
Typically CM did not expect kiddos who have not had much practice orally narrating to do much in the way of written narrations, as oral narration is seen as a stepping stone to writing written narrations. This is one of the reasons why we begin written narrations very slowly and in short form in Preparing Hearts, as kiddos still need to firm up their oral narration skills first as they are transitioning into written narrations.
CM-style written narrations are not meant to be summaries of the readings, but are instead meant to borrow wording and phrasing from the author to convey what stood out to the child within the reading. We begin writing written narrations on very short portions of readings first to allow kiddos to hone this skill. So it is good to know that when you read your child's written narration, you're not looking for a summary.
CM also did not have kiddos do much in the way of written narration until they had first been exposed to years of copywork and studied dictation during which many of the skills of spelling, grammar, capitalization, punctuation, and usage were meant to have been practiced and internalized. So, by the time kiddos were writing written narrations they were supposed to be strong oral narrators, have been doing copywork for years, been utilizing studied dictation, be used to interacting with living books and the higher-level vocabulary contained within them, and be ready to turn their oral narrations into written form.
The reason that we place a target limit of sentences on beginning written narrations is that often families who are new to HOD have not had much prior practice with the skills CM considered foundational to readiness for written narrations. So, consequently the task of written narrations may come up in our guides before a child coming from a different curriculum or approach is technically ready for that skill if they are new to a CM-style curriculum. By easing into the skill of written narration in a bit more guided form as we do in Preparing Hearts, all kiddos can be successful with written narrations. It also makes it easier for a parent to assess a written narration and to guide a child toward growth in this area when the volume of writing produced isn't overwhelming and full of endless spelling, capitalization, grammar, usage, and punctuation mistakes. CM did not want children writing written narrations until they were firm in their copywork and studied dictation skills, making sure that they would not produce endless mistakes in their written narrations. By limiting the child's written narration length a bit, we can be sure that the child isn't actually practicing incorrect spelling and grammar skills during written narration time and instead focus on written narration with a bit of fine-tuning at the end. However, we wouldn't want your child to rewrite her narration in "corrected" form, as this would lead her to believe that there was only one "right way" to write a written narration (which we know isn't true).
I share all of this to show you that CM had a very steady progression she expected children to go through prior to allowing them to do any writing of any length that wasn't copywork! Since you're newer to HOD and to CM's methods, I would definitely encourage you to try to generally follow the length guidelines (or somewhere in that vicinity) within our guides. As the weeks progress, the length increases. Make sure to use the Written Narration Skills Checklist to edit the narration at the end in steps as outlined in the Appendix of the guide. This will allow your child the baby steps she needs in writing written narrations, while allowing her to practice all of the other needed CM style skills needed to produce good written narrations at the same time. I really think she did a great job with this narration, and you can praise her for her work. She appears to be a natural! However, as you continue on with written narrations, you may find the suggested length guidelines to be your friend, as this will also moderate the writing so that your sweetie doesn't end up producing pages of writing that could stray far from following needed grammar, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and usage rules. Yet, she will still be able to express what she took from the reading in written form. I am not a CM purist, yet I do love so much of what she sets forth in her philosophy. For me the marriage of CM's strategies with my own 20+ years now of experience with kiddos in writing has led me to this progression in the area of written narrations and later to our stance on other forms of writing in general.
I spent 11 years in the public school classroom as a teacher during the "Writer's Workshop" era of public schooling where kiddos where encouraged to write as much as possible on whatever topic they desired with little to no editing of any kind. That type of writing produced children who wrote volumes of pages of writing that was incomprehensible and often without any use of conventional spelling or grammar! This is the opposite of what CM has in mind with her steady progression of needed skills to set a child up prior to writing written narrations. I hope this helps you see the method behind what we plan and schedule and lets you know that we will steadily guide kiddos in the skills of written narrations while making sure kiddos have the CM-type skills in place needed prior to writing volumes of sentences! Each guide progressively builds on the skills from the guide before in small increments allowing any family to come into our guides and utilize CM-style skills in bite-sized pieces.
I typically have my own children follow the general suggestions for length and the questions within the guide to help them in their written narrations, even though we have done a CM-style education for many years. Eventually, the questions begin to fade away in the guide, and the child is left on his/her own to write a written narration. But, this extra step of guidance goes a long way in helping kiddos transition from oral to written narration, especially if they haven't had as much practice in orally narrating and previous CM skills as needed. My first two kiddos are natural, avid writers who are able to produce volumes of writing at the drop of a hat with few to no errors. I attribute this to years of a CM education. It would appear that you are blessed with a child such as this too. However, we still find that following the lessons in our guides helps my own kiddos to produce written narrations that are in the style that CM suggested while still giving some guidance in the process for both parent and student HOD style. We pray you will find the same to be true.
Blessings,
Carrie
First off, I'll just say that your honey's narration was great, and you should be so proud! You could just continue as you're doing with the help of the tips from the Appendix titled Written Narration Skills as your guide.
Next, since you asked such good questions I'll just share a bit about CM and her progression of skills, so you (and everyone else who wonders about these same things) can see what we're looking for in a written narration. This is likely much longer than your question warrants, but since we're on the topic I'll share anyway.
Typically CM did not expect kiddos who have not had much practice orally narrating to do much in the way of written narrations, as oral narration is seen as a stepping stone to writing written narrations. This is one of the reasons why we begin written narrations very slowly and in short form in Preparing Hearts, as kiddos still need to firm up their oral narration skills first as they are transitioning into written narrations. CM-style written narrations are not meant to be summaries of the readings, but are instead meant to borrow wording and phrasing from the author to convey what stood out to the child within the reading. We begin writing written narrations on very short portions of readings first to allow kiddos to hone this skill. So it is good to know that when you read your child's written narration, you're not looking for a summary.
CM also did not have kiddos do much in the way of written narration until they had first been exposed to years of copywork and studied dictation during which many of the skills of spelling, grammar, capitalization, punctuation, and usage were meant to have been practiced and internalized.
So, by the time kiddos were writing written narrations they were supposed to be strong oral narrators, have been doing copywork for years, been utilizing studied dictation, be used to interacting with living books and the higher-level vocabulary contained within them, and be ready to turn their oral narrations into written form. The reason that we place a target limit of sentences on beginning written narrations is that often families who are new to HOD have not had much prior practice with the skills CM considered foundational to readiness for written narrations. So, consequently the task of written narrations may come up in our guides before a child coming from a different curriculum or approach is technically ready for that skill if they are new to a CM-style curriculum. By easing into the skill of written narration in a bit more guided form as we do in Preparing Hearts, all kiddos can be successful with written narrations.
It also makes it easier for a parent to assess a written narration and to guide a child toward growth in this area when the volume of writing produced isn't overwhelming and full of endless spelling, capitalization, grammar, usage, and punctuation mistakes. CM did not want children writing written narrations until they were firm in their copywork and studied dictation skills, making sure that they would not produce endless mistakes in their written narrations. By limiting the child's written narration length a bit, we can be sure that the child isn't actually practicing incorrect spelling and grammar skills during written narration time and instead focus on written narration with a bit of fine-tuning at the end. However, we wouldn't want your child to rewrite her narration in "corrected" form, as this would lead her to believe that there was only one "right way" to write a written narration (which we know isn't true). I share all of this to show you that CM had a very steady progression she expected children to go through prior to allowing them to do any writing of any length that wasn't copywork!
Since you're newer to HOD and to CM's methods, I would definitely encourage you to try to generally follow the length guidelines (or somewhere in that vicinity) within our guides. As the weeks progress, the length increases. Make sure to use the Written Narration Skills Checklist to edit the narration at the end in steps as outlined in the Appendix of the guide. This will allow your child the baby steps she needs in writing written narrations, while allowing her to practice all of the other needed CM style skills needed to produce good written narrations at the same time. I really think she did a great job with this narration, and you can praise her for her work. She appears to be a natural! However, as you continue on with written narrations, you may find the suggested length guidelines to be your friend, as this will also moderate the writing so that your sweetie doesn't end up producing pages of writing that could stray far from following needed grammar, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and usage rules. Yet, she will still be able to express what she took from the reading in written form. I am not a CM purist, yet I do love so much of what she sets forth in her philosophy. For me the marriage of CM's strategies with my own 20+ years now of experience with kiddos in writing has led me to this progression in the area of written narrations and later to our stance on other forms of writing in general. I spent 11 years in the public school classroom as a teacher during the "Writer's Workshop" era of public schooling where kiddos where encouraged to write as much as possible on whatever topic they desired with little to no editing of any kind. That type of writing produced children who wrote volumes of pages of writing that was incomprehensible and often without any use of conventional spelling or grammar! This is the opposite of what CM has in mind with her steady progression of needed skills to set a child up prior to writing written narrations. I hope this helps you see the method behind what we plan and schedule and lets you know that we will steadily guide kiddos in the skills of written narrations while making sure kiddos have the CM-type skills in place needed prior to writing volumes of sentences!
Each guide progressively builds on the skills from the guide before in small increments allowing any family to come into our guides and utilize CM-style skills in bite-sized pieces. I typically have my own children follow the general suggestions for length and the questions within the guide to help them in their written narrations, even though we have done a CM-style education for many years. Eventually, the questions begin to fade away in the guide, and the child is left on his/her own to write a written narration. But, this extra step of guidance goes a long way in helping kiddos transition from oral to written narration, especially if they haven't had as much practice in orally narrating and previous CM skills as needed.
My first two kiddos are natural, avid writers who are able to produce volumes of writing at the drop of a hat with few to no errors. I attribute this to years of a CM education. It would appear that you are blessed with a child such as this too. However, we still find that following the lessons in our guides helps my own kiddos to produce written narrations that are in the style that CM suggested while still giving some guidance in the process for both parent and student HOD style. We pray you will find the same to be true. Blessings,
Carrie
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doubleportion
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:40 pm
- Location: Arkansas
- Contact:
Re: ? Written Narration in Preparing?
Thank you, Carrie, for taking the time to give me such great details!
So based on what you said I will try and focus on greater mastery of oral narration skills and then work into the written narration? The check list in the appendix should be a great tool for me. 
We came from a curriculum that mixed classical and CM and it made oral narration and written narrations be more summaries than anything. I think I just need to allow us the time to move into a full CM style learning. My dd still struggles with the oral narrations because of that difference. I think, based on what you said, that I will work on smaller chunks of reading thus smaller chunks of oral narration.
I'm bookmarking this to come back and re-read down the road.
Thanks again!
Edie
I some how missed the Written Narration Skills tips in the appendix.Carrie wrote:Make sure to use the Written Narration Skills Checklist to edit the narration at the end in steps as outlined in the Appendix of the guide. This will allow your child the baby steps she needs in writing written narrations, while allowing her to practice all of the other needed CM style skills needed to produce good written narrations at the same time
So based on what you said I will try and focus on greater mastery of oral narration skills and then work into the written narration? The check list in the appendix should be a great tool for me. We came from a curriculum that mixed classical and CM and it made oral narration and written narrations be more summaries than anything. I think I just need to allow us the time to move into a full CM style learning. My dd still struggles with the oral narrations because of that difference. I think, based on what you said, that I will work on smaller chunks of reading thus smaller chunks of oral narration.
I'm bookmarking this to come back and re-read down the road.
Thanks again!
Edie
dd 13 -Rev2Rev (enjoyed PHFHG, CTC, RTR)
ds 8 -Beyond
ds 6 LHFHG & ds 2 & ds 6 months
4 waiting for us with Jesus
ds 8 -Beyond
ds 6 LHFHG & ds 2 & ds 6 months
4 waiting for us with Jesus
-
abrightmom
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:56 pm
Re: ? Written Narration in Preparing?
Dear Carrie,
Thank-you for an excellent summary of CM's skill progression. The only writing philosophy I'm familiar with is Susan Wise Bauer's as she has laid out in her book The Well Trained Mind. I've been using Writing With Ease with my DS8 which gently and incrementally teaches via copywork, narration and dictation. In Level Two, which we are using now, one of the goals in writing down my son's narration (which I write) is summarizing the passage. She wants to teach the child to pull out the main ideas and write those down in 2 or 3 sentences. Do you have any insight into the differences between CM style and WTM/SWB style? I honestly think that both "skills" have merit but I'm not sure why 
. Where is CM going with learning to write down narrations in this way? I'd love to read more about her philosophy although I find the sheer volume of material overwhelming!
I am eagerly anticipating our shift to HOD this Spring. I regret that I didn't use HOD with my oldest from the get-go as I think he's missed some of those foundational CM skills. That said, God has given him a quick mind and I do believe he'll learn the skills he needs to do well with HOD.
Thankful,
Katrina
Thank-you for an excellent summary of CM's skill progression.
The only writing philosophy I'm familiar with is Susan Wise Bauer's as she has laid out in her book The Well Trained Mind. I've been using Writing With Ease with my DS8 which gently and incrementally teaches via copywork, narration and dictation. In Level Two, which we are using now, one of the goals in writing down my son's narration (which I write) is summarizing the passage. She wants to teach the child to pull out the main ideas and write those down in 2 or 3 sentences. Do you have any insight into the differences between CM style and WTM/SWB style? I honestly think that both "skills" have merit but I'm not sure why . Where is CM going with learning to write down narrations in this way? I'd love to read more about her philosophy although I find the sheer volume of material overwhelming! I am eagerly anticipating our shift to HOD this Spring. I regret that I didn't use HOD with my oldest from the get-go as I think he's missed some of those foundational CM skills. That said, God has given him a quick mind and I do believe he'll learn the skills he needs to do well with HOD.
Thankful,
Katrina
Katrina 
Wife to Ben, husband extraordinaire! God is so good!
DS21, DS20, DD18
Levi DS14
Wife to Ben, husband extraordinaire! God is so good! DS21, DS20, DD18
Levi DS14
Re: ? Written Narration in Preparing?
Hi Katrina! I own the CM volumes too, and am slowly working my way through them. CM is one of those amazing ladies who seems to speak and write in quotable sentences all of the time - I can ponder a sentence or a paragraph of hers for awhile and get much out of it. I liked reading Levison's, Andreola's, and Gardner's books first. Since I know Carrie is writing tonight, I thought I'd link you to these posts that I remembered Carrie answering before, as I think they'll help answer your questions:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6342&p=46417#p46417
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2453
HTH!
In Christ,
Julie
I liked reading Levison's, Andreola's, and Gardner's books first. Since I know Carrie is writing tonight, I thought I'd link you to these posts that I remembered Carrie answering before, as I think they'll help answer your questions:viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6342&p=46417#p46417
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2453
HTH!
In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie
-
abrightmom
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:56 pm
Re: ? Written Narration in Preparing?
Hi Julie,
Thanks for the links!! I have read Andreola (LOVE her book) and Levison but not Gardner. I think I'll go back to Karen Andreola's book as it is a wonderful summary of CM methods. I'm ready to read with fresh eyes.
BTW, I've been poring over HOD archives as I'm planning, organizing, learning, etc. and YOU are amazing! I am blessed by your wise counsel, Christ-like encouragements, practical ideas (your beautiful charts), etc.
Thank-you again Julie. This board is a most refreshing place!
Thankful,
Katrina
Thanks for the links!! I have read Andreola (LOVE her book) and Levison but not Gardner.
I think I'll go back to Karen Andreola's book as it is a wonderful summary of CM methods. I'm ready to read with fresh eyes.BTW, I've been poring over HOD archives as I'm planning, organizing, learning, etc. and YOU are amazing!
I am blessed by your wise counsel, Christ-like encouragements, practical ideas (your beautiful charts), etc. Thank-you again Julie. This board is a most refreshing place!
Thankful,
Katrina
Katrina Wife to Ben, husband extraordinaire! God is so good!
DS21, DS20, DD18
Levi DS14
Wife to Ben, husband extraordinaire! God is so good! DS21, DS20, DD18
Levi DS14
Re: ? Written Narration in Preparing?
Your words have encouraged me today! Thank you so much.
In Christ,
Julie
In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie