Skip Beyond? WWYD?

[Betameculia]

Hi, We were very excited to get our package the other day and I have spent portions of the week-end reading the guides.

I am so impressed with what a thoughtful program this is, both because it is so Christ-centred and because it is so age-appropriate.

But, I am wondering about Bigger for my soon to be seven year old son.

I ordered LHFHG and Beyond basic packages with the intention of doing the left-hand side of Little Hearts with the right-hand side of Beyond. My aim was to ease us into this new style of homeschooling with something a little on the easy side and use the time to fill in a few little gaps with phonics and handwriting (my DS7 learnt to read at 4 and is very competent, but I want to review phonics just to consolidate and to lay a good foundation for spelling and vocabulary skills).

BUT... DS7!!! Despite his handwriting allergy (seems to be quite common among 7 year old boys given the amount of posts on the subject) he is quite capable of handling Bigger. As far as Maths is concerned, he's more than ready for 2A, likewise for language arts, science (the interest is more than there), and his reading, retention and comprehension skills are outstanding. He is already writing in cursive - this was easier to teach and learn after an agonising time with manuscript. He just doesn't like writing. He also has a very bright younger brother (nearly 6) who is nipping at his heels every step of the way. While they get on beautifully together, and it would make sense to combine them timewise, DS7 is desperate for more learning time for himself. He says he would prefer to be separate from his younger brother (although he's quite capable of giving into a grass is greener view of things and end up doing things with DS6 Grrrr!)

So... I'm thinking of doing Little Hearts and Beyond as planned until the end of the year, or Unit 21 or thereabouts - whenever we hit Columbus and then switching DS7 to Bigger and keeping DS6 in Little Hearts. By the time we embark on Bigger, if we follow this plan, DS7 will be about 7 and a 1/2.

PROS:
DS7 needs the role models provided by the biographical approach of Bigger, and the history provided I think will be more to his interests.
Save for handwriting (which I hope will catch up - he's quite capable of doing a prodigious amount if motivated, also he's an 'all or nothing' kid and will go from complete non-cooperation to full steam ahead once he 'gets it' and I've just got to be ready to supply when the moment strikes) he is more than capable with everything else. Overall, his fine motor skills are extremely good. We are about to start piano lessons because his hands are so strong. He loves drawing and what he does of handwriting is perfect. It's just that he's only prepared to trace a sentence of mine and then write only one word on his own.
He's a very aural learner. Tell him once and he won't forget and gets annoyed if something he already knows is repeated. I don't know how three run-throughs of Washington, Westward expansion, Abe Lincoln and Edison over the course of Little Hearts, Beyond and Bigger are going to wash with him, especially given that we're Australians and don't really need US history to that degree (no offence! I have a college major in US history and love the subject but...)
I'll be doing Beyond with DS6 eventually (he's a completely different kettle of fish) and DS7 will get it by absorption.

CONS:
Moving him on means more demands on my time and possibly less time to do 'projects' which he loves to do.
He will get to Creation to Christ and Resurrection to Reformation more quickly than I would like him to. I would prefer a little more maturity to tackle the topics therein. Mind you, he can and does surprise me (but only when he's interested).
He misses the empathetic approach to history which characterises Beyond and which I think is so critical to a sound understanding of history and also good for his character development.
There will be gaps - or will there?

What would you do?

Annette

[MomtoJGJE]

Have you thought about working on just his handwriting for a few months to beef it up and then just start with Bigger half speed?

You said he's ready for 2A, has he taken the placement test? Also, if he's not used to the way Singapore Math is done, it might be beneficial to start with 1B even if he places in 2A just for him to get used to the way it works.

I think your idea of waiting until he's about 7.5 sounds great.... if you were to do that, you could figure out how many weeks it is from starting 1B in the Beyond manual and work from there to the end on the right side of Beyond, and do LHFHG as you were planning to. Were you just going to do LA and Math from the Beyond manual or storytime and emerging readers too? Either way would work great.

We did Beyond (and are finishing up the last few weeks now) with my just turned 7 year old and will start Bigger in September (roughly) when she will be almost 7.5.

[Betameculia]

Have you thought about working on just his handwriting for a few months to beef it up and then just start with Bigger half speed?

You said he's ready for 2A, has he taken the placement test? Also, if he's not used to the way Singapore Math is done, it might be beneficial to start with 1B even if he places in 2A just for him to get used to the way it works.

I think your idea of waiting until he's about 7.5 sounds great.... if you were to do that, you could figure out how many weeks it is from starting 1B in the Beyond manual and work from there to the end on the right side of Beyond, and do LHFHG as you were planning to. Were you just going to do LA and Math from the Beyond manual or storytime and emerging readers too? Either way would work great.

We did Beyond (and are finishing up the last few weeks now) with my just turned 7 year old and will start Bigger in September (roughly) when she will be almost 7.5.

This year was going to be the handwriting year, because handwriting is what is holding him back. He has come a long way since we started in February: learnt all his cursive upper and lower case letters and he's writing beautifully. He just does it on his terms. I don't mind too much - he's consistent with it. Writing this I'm thinking maybe I'm expecting too much from him given that he's achieved so much in such a short time. He doesn't realise how much better off he'll be when he can really 'do it'. Next year will be a completely different story, I think (hope!).

He hasn't taken the placement test for Singapore but we are doing Abeka Arithmetic 1 this year. It has been very successful for filling in gaps and consolidating what he has learnt already. He's a seriously mathy kid. So much seems to be self-evident. In fact that's one of my reservations about Singapore. A mathy kid already tends to think mathematically, so the way in which the material is presented makes total sense and presents no challenge. He's already worked out multiplication by 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 on his own and has no trouble with column addition. Actually, we started on 1B last year but neither of us really liked it. We'll finish Abeka 1 in about 3 months and I might give 1B another try then to cover multiplication and division, which Abeka doesn't cover in grade 1. Otherwise everything else will be pretty much on par.

I'm planning on using the Storytime, LA and emerging readers from Beyond. Once again, this is going to be a pushover for him and he is quite capable of doing the material in Bigger, if not now, then certainly by the time he's 7.5. On the one hand I'd prefer things a little easy for him to find out exactly what he knows and understands (he learns so much, so quickly through his own efforts) and maintain his confidence. On the other hand I can't stand the 'I'm bored' attitude I sometimes get from him. Yet, I know that if I give him something too challenging he'll resist (not pleasant). I've had enough of his temper.

Since writing my original post, I've been looking at the Beyond manual in more detail. There is a lot there that would really appeal to him. I might just launch into Beyond with him and keep him separate from his younger brother, and we could well finish it by early next year, ready to start Bigger. But I have to work out how I can manage the two of them (plus two little ones) and I know they're going to take part in and learn from each other's activities. Above all, I think a lot of his attitude is an attention thing and he simply needs more one-on-one with me. Also, he knows NOTHING about American history. He's already read a lot of Old Testament stories, knows about Ancient Egypt, Roman times, Knights and castles, vikings, animals, geography, light etc. US history would be very refreshing for him.

I also like the idea of starting Bigger with him now and doing it half pace. There seems to have been some talk on other posts about easing 7 year olds into Bigger, particularly with writing skills. How would I go about it?

Many thanks,

Annette

[lmercon]

Beyond is such a neat program and provides a wonderful background for Bigger. He's young. I wouldn't rush him through what he is able to "handle." I'd slow down and let him "savor" what he is learning. You can always add in additional independent reading for him or let him explore a science topic that interests him at the moment. I found an almost unexplainable "rest" that happened when I allowed myself and my ds to enjoy the short lesson and let it be. He has learned so much and has an understanding about "how" and "why," not just "what." On another note, Singapore does get harder. My ds is also very mathy, and I love how Singapore appeals to his abstract math mind and encourages him to think "math." I would really encourage you to try it again. My ds has even come up with strategies for solving problems that make more sense than Singapore's! I taught fourth grade in ps for quite a few years, and I tried so hard to get my students to think this way. Be sure your little guy has a good mental handle on number bonds, as that will reappear over and over.
Just a few thoughts to take or leave,
Laura

[daybreaking]

Beyond is such a neat program and provides a wonderful background for Bigger. He's young. I wouldn't rush him through what he is able to "handle." I'd slow down and let him "savor" what he is learning. You can always add in additional independent reading for him or let him explore a science topic that interests him at the moment. I found an almost unexplainable "rest" that happened when I allowed myself and my ds to enjoy the short lesson and let it be. He has learned so much and has an understanding about "how" and "why," not just "what." On another note, Singapore does get harder. My ds is also very mathy, and I love how Singapore appeals to his abstract math mind and encourages him to think "math." I would really encourage you to try it again. My ds has even come up with strategies for solving problems that make more sense than Singapore's! I taught fourth grade in ps for quite a few years, and I tried so hard to get my students to think this way. Be sure your little guy has a good mental handle on number bonds, as that will reappear over and over.
Just a few thoughts to take or leave,
Laura

I really appreciate this response. I, too, have struggled back and forth with the Beyond vs. Bigger issue. I look at Bigger and know ds would be quite capable and wonder if I'm shortchanging him by waiting. (We're just about done with R&S Arithmetic 2 and ds tested out of Singapore 1B, he's ready for cursive, he has a passion for science and history and is reading at the 4th grade level.). Yet, the type of thoughts you express are what keep me going back to sticking with Beyond for the left side. (We'll probably use a lot of Bigger's right side.) We do a ton of reading outside of school, so that helps me relax a bit about not using Bigger's science and history. I'm always second guessing myself, however, so I was glad to read your insights.

[my3sons]

I can see your thinking here, and this has really been a great discussion that is sure to help others as they consider placement too. I do agree with the general advice given by the ladies not to skip Beyond. It is a stepping stone for the increased writing in Bigger Hearts, as well as many other skills. Writing becomes more of a focal skill in Bigger Hearts, and it affects how much a child will be able to get out of a skill that is being taught. A 7 yo going into Bigger Hearts needs both strong reading and writing skills to be able to do it as it is intended to be done. Your ds has strong reading skills, which can be challenged through beginning Drawn into the Heart of Reading Level 2/3 if you think that's fitting. For Bigger Hearts especially, we found the part of the placement chart that says "able to copy passages and compose original sentences" to be pretty true. Here is a post that is helpful in explaining the differences in writing needs between Beyond and Bigger:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3005
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1516&p=11829

I think starting Bigger without doing Beyond with a child that is opposed to writing more than a word or tracing over an example would make it one tough year for the mom, which I so don't want for you! Like you said, I'm sure he CAN do it, but with the struggle he's giving you over it, one more year of working on those skills and improving them slowly would sure go a long way to make Bigger a BIG success one year later! The writing keeps increasing steadily, as do the other skills, which brings me to another thing to consider. We found the plans in Beyond to be an excellent way to teach solid oral narration skills. The way it is taught in Beyond does wonders for the increased expectation of the proficiency of that skill in Bigger Hearts (and on up). Also, listening to the history read-alouds in Beyond, do a good job of helping dc be prepared to listen to and enjoy Eggleston's books in Bigger Hearts, as well as giving the backdrop of the history before delving into the biographical focus of it. I think all of these reasons are good ones to do Beyond first and look at it as a year to get ready for Bigger Hearts. I think you'll find the steady diet of living books and CM style instruction of skills in Beyond to be excellent for your ds, while still being able to practice increasing writing skills through the copywork and spelling portions of Beyond. HTH as you consider ds's placement!

In Christ,
Julie

[daybreaking]

I can see your thinking here, and this has really been a great discussion that is sure to help others as they consider placement too. I do agree with the general advice given by the ladies not to skip Beyond. It is a stepping stone for the increased writing in Bigger Hearts, as well as many other skills. Writing becomes more of a focal skill in Bigger Hearts, and it affects how much a child will be able to get out of a skill that is being taught. A 7 yo going into Bigger Hearts needs both strong reading and writing skills to be able to do it as it is intended to be done. Your ds has strong reading skills, which can be challenged through beginning Drawn into the Heart of Reading Level 2/3 if you think that's fitting. For Bigger Hearts especially, we found the part of the placement chart that says "able to copy passages and compose original sentences" to be pretty true. Here is a post that is helpful in explaining the differences in writing needs between Beyond and Bigger:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3005
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1516&p=11829

I think starting Bigger without doing Beyond with a child that is opposed to writing more than a word or tracing over an example would make it one tough year for the mom, which I so don't want for you! Like you said, I'm sure he CAN do it, but with the struggle he's giving you over it, one more year of working on those skills and improving them slowly would sure go a long way to make Bigger a BIG success one year later! The writing keeps increasing steadily, as do the other skills, which brings me to another thing to consider. We found the plans in Beyond to be an excellent way to teach solid oral narration skills. The way it is taught in Beyond does wonders for the increased expectation of the proficiency of that skill in Bigger Hearts (and on up). Also, listening to the history read-alouds in Beyond, do a good job of helping dc be prepared to listen to and enjoy Eggleston's books in Bigger Hearts, as well as giving the backdrop of the history before delving into the biographical focus of it. I think all of these reasons are good ones to do Beyond first and look at it as a year to get ready for Bigger Hearts. I think you'll find the steady diet of living books and CM style instruction of skills in Beyond to be excellent for your ds, while still being able to practice increasing writing skills through the copywork and spelling portions of Beyond. HTH as you consider ds's placement!

In Christ,
Julie

I just read your response and think, hmm, maybe we should do Bigger. I SO don't want to miss all that it is Beyond, but my ds not only is reading well, but already does a lot of writing. (Since we're new to HOD, we were already doing R&S, and as part of their curriculum, he's been doing 4 workbook pages a day of math, 2 pages a day of R&S reading, 2 pages a day of R&S phonics, 1 handwriting page or a 1-2 sentences of copywork, 2 sentences of dictation and occasional extra written activities listed in the TM. We also have been doing 2-4 pages of Singapore math a day. ) Looking at that, I'm thinking, hmmm, if he can handle all that writing (and do well with it), then maybe we should move to Bigger, especially since he'll be going into 2nd grade and turning 8 in August. On the other hand, I love the relaxed approach of Beyond, I don't want ds to miss the material, I think it will provide a good foundation and I think ds will love it. Oh, boy! This is what I mean about always second guessing myself all the time!! Help, Julie and others! What do you think?

[my3sons]

I just read your response and think, hmm, maybe we should do Bigger. I SO don't want to miss all that it is Beyond, but my ds not only is reading well, but already does a lot of writing. (Since we're new to HOD, we were already doing R&S, and as part of their curriculum, he's been doing 4 workbook pages a day of math, 2 pages a day of R&S reading, 2 pages a day of R&S phonics, 1 handwriting page or a 1-2 sentences of copywork, 2 sentences of dictation and occasional extra written activities listed in the TM. We also have been doing 2-4 pages of Singapore math a day. ) Looking at that, I'm thinking, hmmm, if he can handle all that writing (and do well with it), then maybe we should move to Bigger, especially since he'll be going into 2nd grade and turning 8 in August. On the other hand, I love the relaxed approach of Beyond, I don't want ds to miss the material, I think it will provide a good foundation and I think ds will love it. Oh, boy! This is what I mean about always second guessing myself all the time!! Help, Julie and others! What do you think?

Has he had much experience with CM's style of learning? How about oral narrations and listening to books that are living, but higher levels of reading and sometimes "classical" sounding in nature? If your answer is "yes" to both of those questions, I do think that since he is 8 yo (and I went back and read your pp's where you described his skills in regard to the placement chart), that he could probably do Bigger Hearts (if you can bare not to do Beyond, as it is an excellent program too!).

In Christ ,
Julie

[daybreaking]

I just read your response and think, hmm, maybe we should do Bigger. I SO don't want to miss all that it is Beyond, but my ds not only is reading well, but already does a lot of writing. (Since we're new to HOD, we were already doing R&S, and as part of their curriculum, he's been doing 4 workbook pages a day of math, 2 pages a day of R&S reading, 2 pages a day of R&S phonics, 1 handwriting page or a 1-2 sentences of copywork, 2 sentences of dictation and occasional extra written activities listed in the TM. We also have been doing 2-4 pages of Singapore math a day. ) Looking at that, I'm thinking, hmmm, if he can handle all that writing (and do well with it), then maybe we should move to Bigger, especially since he'll be going into 2nd grade and turning 8 in August. On the other hand, I love the relaxed approach of Beyond, I don't want ds to miss the material, I think it will provide a good foundation and I think ds will love it. Oh, boy! This is what I mean about always second guessing myself all the time!! Help, Julie and others! What do you think?

Has he had much experience with CM's style of learning? How about oral narrations and listening to books that are living, but higher levels of reading and sometimes "classical" sounding in nature? If your answer is "yes" to both of those questions, I do think that since he is 8 yo (and I went back and read your pp's where you described his skills in regard to the placement chart), that he could probably do Bigger Hearts (if you can bare not to do Beyond, as it is an excellent program too!).

In Christ ,
Julie

Thanks for answering so quickly! Yes, he's had experience with CM. I guess you could say we've been a combination of classical-CM. On one hand, for math, reading and language arts, we've done R&S, which is very textbook oriented. For history, science and literature, we've been big-time Charlotte Mason fans and, as a result, ds has done tons of listening to living books. Since he was a wee little one, we've read to him 1-2 hours per day and he also takes a one hour quiet time, during which he listens to audio books on tape. Your description of the books being "living, but higher levels of reading and sometimes "classical" sounding" perfectly describes the types of book we read to him. Before we discovered HOD, we had already read several of Bigger's read aloud suggestions, as well as some from higher guides, such as the D'Aulaire books and CHOW. He will sit and listen to us read for lengthy periods ... our problem is getting him to let us stop reading!! We have also done some oral narration, as well. We had started off last year doing Apologia's Astronomy, with my reading and then him narrating back. He did extremely well and gave very, very detailed narrations.

So, I guess based on that information, the recommendation would be to do Bigger. In retrospect, Beyond would have been a perfect fit for this past year. If only I knew then what I know now! I guess my only other question is if I should try to do some of Beyond this summer, to prepare him for Bigger and to give him a better foundation, so there aren't any gaps. Thank you again, for your wisdom!

[Betameculia]

I think starting Bigger without doing Beyond with a child that is opposed to writing more than a word or tracing over an example would make it one tough year for the mom, which I so don't want for you!

The issue with writing with my little guy is that during formal handwriting-copywork lessons he will do the minimum: trace a sentence and write one word perfectly. Copywork is usually from a favourite text of his choice. He is a real perfectionist and will learn through observation and minimal application until he fully understands what's involved, then it's 100%. On the other hand, if he has an idea that he wants to write down, there's nothing stopping him. You should have seen the output last Christmas: nearly 20 cards to his cousins! Other times there are signs, maps, notes, lists, letters. These he prints in a mixture of capital and lower case letters. Overall, his spelling is very good, but there are times when I have to dictate letter by letter when he's in unfamiliar territory.

So, if he's interested, writing's a breeze. If he's not, it's compliant but slow-going. Could it be a question of what is going to interest him more? Or, maybe I can get him to think up all sorts of creative projects with Beyond? He's a really inventive, creative kid.

Also, doing Beyond with him and Little Hearts with his younger brother, I'm going to have tag-team all the way through. It would be great to combine them given that they are only a year apart and the younger guy is so extremely capable. I'm thinking of a gap year after Preparing for the big guy so that they can do CtC together and a lot of basic skills have been consolidated.

Any more thoughts?

Annette

[momtofive]

Betameculia,

For what it's worth. . . . .I'll tell you what I'm doing this year.

I am combining my (allergic to writing-8yr. old boy) with his little sister (6.5 yr. old). They will be doing Beyond together this coming year. Of course, they are on different levels with their 3 R's, so I'll be beefing it up for the 8yr. old and doing it, as is, for the 6 yr. old. I don't know if this helps, but what I do know is that CTC is a more mature program. If you're concerned about him getting to it too soon, maybe this would be an option. My oldest will be doing CTC this fall and I've been looking over it quite closely. While it's an AWESOME program, it is something you'll want him to be ready for. I think that my oldest is quite advanced and this will be challenging for him, too.

The best thing to do, (which I've found out the hard way! ) is to pray about it. If you're unsure, please give time to pray and let the Lord lead in your school adventures. He has the very best in mind for your family and most likely you'll love what He directs you to do!

Best wishes as you decide!

In Christ,

Lisa

[inHistiming]

Just wanted to add that I did Beyond with my dd when she was 8 and it was great for her...she loved it, and with all the LA, math, spelling on her level the rest went along perfectly. I will be starting Beyond with my ds 7 (just turned 7 last week) near the end of summer. We will be going at half-pace to begin with and may pick up the pace if it looks as though he needs it. Otherwise, we will just pug along until we finish it that way. Anyway, just wanted to encourage you that it is plenty for a 7 or 8 yr. old and I think you would find it to be a good fit. Plus, it would be much easier to combine along the way and in later years if you start your 8 and 6 yr olds (are those the right ages?) in Beyond. So that's my 2 cents, for what it's worth!

[my3sons]

Annette - Thanks for sharing more about your ds and also more about your desire to combine at some point! I had that exact same thought in regard to your dc's placement. With them being only a year or so apart and close enough in abilities to only be one guide different from each other, I really do think combining from the start may be the way to go. What would you think of putting your 6 and 7 yo in Beyond Little Hearts... together for the left side and Storytime of the plans? Then, your 7 yo could do the right side of Beyond as it is written, but your 6 yo could do the LA and math from the right side of LHFHG? How do you think your 6 yo would do with this? It really depends on the 6 yo, I guess. I really hesitate to ever recommend for a young 7 yo to do Bigger Hearts. About the only time I do recommend a young 7 yo does Bigger Hearts is when they've done Beyond previously and are quite advanced for their age in both reading and writing. The reason for that is you can set yourself up for subsequent guides to be a struggle in this area year after year, which is so not worth it. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this option! I sure like this option better for combining, for both now, and for years to come.

In Christ,
Julie

[Betameculia]

Annette - Thanks for sharing more about your ds and also more about your desire to combine at some point! I had that exact same thought in regard to your dc's placement. With them being only a year or so apart and close enough in abilities to only be one guide different from each other, I really do think combining from the start may be the way to go. What would you think of putting your 6 and 7 yo in Beyond Little Hearts... together for the left side and Storytime of the plans? Then, your 7 yo could do the right side of Beyond as it is written, but your 6 yo could do the LA and math from the right side of LHFHG? How do you think your 6 yo would do with this? It really depends on the 6 yo, I guess. I really hesitate to ever recommend for a young 7 yo to do Bigger Hearts. About the only time I do recommend a young 7 yo does Bigger Hearts is when they've done Beyond previously and are quite advanced for their age in both reading and writing. The reason for that is you can set yourself up for subsequent guides to be a struggle in this area year after year, which is so not worth it. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this option! I sure like this option better for combining, for both now, and for years to come.

In Christ,
Julie

The thoughtfulness of all these replies is so beautiful!

Julie, my soon to be 6 year old is even more capable than my 7 year old. If there ever was a kid who could handle Bigger at just 7, he'd be a candidate - he's very precocious. His writing skills are better and he is much more workbook oriented than his brother. Heaps easier to teach! A much more compliant, sanguine character (loads of fun!). He is doing the same level of maths as DS7, is breezing through Abeka 1 Phonics and is reading independently at about 4th grade level. So they can both easily do the RH side of Beyond. In fact I originally thought of having DS6 do the LH side of Little Hearts and the RH side of Beyond.

I am, however, concerned about DS6's level of comprehension. He needs to talk about things more one on one with me. They both do. They have completely different learning styles which both need to be respected and developed.

The boys' emotional and spiritual needs are more important, I think, at this stage. They're both extremely capable from a 3Rs viewpoint.

Annette

[Betameculia]

Here is a post that is helpful in explaining the differences in writing needs between Beyond and Bigger:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3005
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1516&p=11829

What great threads! These have helped SO much. Definitely Beyond for Big Boy7. We can always beef up according to interest and I might preface it with a bit on Columbus. He will LOVE Columbus! Doing the LH side half pace and allowing for side trips will ensure that we don't hit CtC too early. I would like him to be closer to 11 (at least!) for this one. We can also weave in a lot of parallel Australian stuff such as colonial field trips and gold panning. I think for him the best thing to do is to take it gently and allow him plenty of time to exercise his creative juices: they're his God-given talents and I need to work with them, not fight them. DS6 can tag along and do Little Hearts properly. This will work very well for 2010-11. They will probably join together for Bigger in 2012 and we'll do it slow.

One year, one day at a time, I guess.

I cannot tell you how much easier it is to work all this out and how adaptable everything is compared with the overbearing weekly schedules that one finds in other curricula. It's flexible without being messy! I don't like messy!

Annette