Like what I see ... trying to nail it all down

[momof4busyboys]

Hello ladies (which causes me to ponder ... are there any men on here?)

Anyhow, I have been looking at HOD for several months and have been reading the boards for the last few days.

While some clarify, others get me more turned around ... so I thought I'd just jump on with all my information and see if you guys (excuse me ... gals) can help me out.

A little background. I have four boys --- J (10), S (soon to be , C (soon to be 6), and D (soon to be 3). The older two have done an in-depth study of American History this year up through the Civil War. Go ahead ... ask me about Antietem (except how to spell it). LOL!! The younger two just kind of hang out and come and go as they choose.

Oldest son is finishing up R & S Beginning Wisely (Level 3) so would move on to R & S Building with Diligence (Level 4) without any problem. He loves reading and finds books relating to current history craze. He knows way more than his mom. When I'm teaching my co-op I just look to him when I'm stuck. 99% of the time he has the answer. When studying the guide, I lean toward PHFHG or C to C. There is no way I could survive another year of American History with him, although he says he'd love it, but he likes to go waaaaaay deep. If he asks me one more detail question about Gettysburg, I may lose my mind. I don't know!!!

Number 2 son (stb has almost finished Abeka 1st grade phonics so has a good phonics background, although it almost killed us both. He is a typical 7-year-old BOY, and can not handle being confined to a desk. However, you can only do so much school on the trampoline. I know that I cannot push another worksheet curriculum on him. He is at his best when we are reading and discussing. He is an emerging reader, but he does not like to read. However, he loves to be read to. Right now, the older two are listening to me read "Farmer Boy". He is currently learning cursive. We started in January. He is learning his letters, but couldn't take dictation in cursive. Writes in manuscript unless doing a cursive lesson. When I look at the guide, I would go with BLHFHG or BHFHG. He is capable of copying down sentences, but not without at least 10 to 15 minutes of tears and frustration ... oh yea, on his part too. LOL!! For Stephen, I need to have a curriculum which will teach him, but let him do a lot of discussing. He loves science. I don't. I'll just leave it at that.

I would love to combine the two boys. On a comprehension level, S is way advanced. He is very comfortable discussing on the same level with his brother. It is just his written work that is a challenge. Struggling with how to handle this. He will not even attempt creative writing. We work together. I write down everything he says, and then he copies it under complete and total protest!! Sentences are limited to 3 or 4 words. Not because he can't write nice descriptive, adjective-filled sentences, but because if he says them, there will be that much more to copy. I'm sure you moms of boys are grooving with me here. He's amazingly athletic and kind, gets along well with all he meets, and charms the socks off his mom (once school is over).

Number 3 knows his letters and most sounds. He writes his name. Often asks mom how to make a certain letter. Requires lots of attention. Don't know how I'm gonna throw him in the mix. No formal math as of yet, but we do that when we're cooking in the kitchen or just talking. I have 4 french fries. Now I'm going to give you one. How many do I have left? That kind of stuff. I would probably start him in LHFHG.

Number 4 would probably tag along for now or do LHTH.

Okay, here's where I confess that I find this totally overwhelming. I don't think I could teach from 3 or 4 different guides. I know many of you say that is exactly how you do it, but .... What I do like is the HOD boxes where Carrie has set out the day. This extremely ADD (self-diagnosed) mom cannot read a teacher's manual to save her soul. By the time I flip the pages a couple of times, I can't figure out where I'm supposed to go back to in order to teach my child. Therefore, after two years of homeschooling, I have bought many different curriculums and ended up making up my own because I couldn't understand the one I bought. I love the concept of TOG, but my husband even said he didn't think I could stay focused with all that stuff in front of me. Help!

I considered letting J (oldest) study Eatern Civilization next year and then putting S and J in PHFHG the next year with J doing extensions.

Can someone please offer amazing advice. I'm getting really confused. What I do know is that if I get overwhelmed I will not do anything. Imagine checking out 30 books from the library for the kids and not reading any of them because you had so many of them you couldn't figure out where to start. Is anybody with me here?

I hope I haven't totally confused you, but if I have I hope you have at least had a good chuckle in the reading. By the way, the real draw of this curriculum (beyond those awesome boxes) is the focus on God and Biblical history and putting it at the center of the curriculum. I don't want Bible in a box. I want it in everything we do!

Many Blessings!

Kathy

[jenntracy]

i don't know that i will be much help.

It does sound like #3 son might do well in LHFHG. There really shouldn't be too much flipping in the guide. You can always check boxes as you go or make a little chart of your own to check (or dry erase marker if laminated or in a page protector) the subjects you do each day with each child. My son like this and so do I.
If you have to slow down at all , you just pick up with where you left off. We are finishing up LHFHG in June. He turns 7 in October and will be "1st grade" in fall.

Your youngest could just tag along or if you wanted to try LHTH, it only takes about 30 minutes at most (usually if some type of art thing that day).
Do his work first and then you feel like you have completed something .

That is all i have to offer as far as advice. TM can seem confusing and overwhelming. Just take it slow. After a while, HOD is second nature and everything flows. My son even enjoys picking what order to do things in sometimes. He likes the routine.

Next year i will have one int BEyond and one in LHFHG and a 2yr old tagging along. in a few years i will have kids in 3 separate guides.

Jenn

[3boysandagirl]

This is coming from a failed TOG user, your husband is right. If you have trouble making decisions about where to start TOG is not for you, or me either. HOD on the other hand is right up our alley, it has the richness of TOG without the confusion. You think with TOG you are not doing 2-3 programs, but you really are. Even though they are all on the same history, you still have to meet each kid at their level, it still takes one-on-one teaching.

I think after a year of TOG on the Rhetoric and Dialectic levels (for me), HOD is a breath of fresh air. Now, I'll admit that I haven't started with the older boys yet but we all just really think the "Little Boxes" will keep us on task so much better. Carrie has done all the hard work of scheduling everything for me, I just have to work with the youngers and guide the olders. I know as it gets higher there is alot more independent work as well, so the multiple guides get less difficult to use.

It sounds like the history buff would place well in CTC, there have been some threads on how much of that work is teacher driven and how much is student driven, I'm not very good at linking things so I'm gonna leave that to someone else. It sounds like combining them would be difficult for your almost 8? year old. He doesn't seem ready for the work in CTC, but I might be misunderstanding his level. He seems like he would place really well in Beyond, the placement chart on the home page is really spot-on; so you might give that a second look. LHFHG seems perfect for your third son, if you do it with the youngest, don't be surprised if he struggles. This is just my opinion and my experience, but I had my 4-5 year old daughter tag along and it is clear she is just not ready. Getting ready to go back and pick up LHTH for her, so she has her own.

Have to go, HTH,

[momof4busyboys]

Thanks Jenn and Christi:

I appreciate all the help and wonderful advice.

I believe my oldest would work more independently, allowing me more time with the little guys. I'll look for the posts about how long PHFHG and C to C would take each day. I think I like the look of the history in PHFHG because it gives an overview of history. Then he can do C to C and go into more depth. Does HOD work that way?

Also, I think David (the littlest guy) would love to have his own school. I'll check into LHFH

Look forward to hearing your collective wisdom.

Thanks Bunches!

Kathy

[Kathleen]

Kathy,

Welcome to the HOD board! Reading about your busy boys definitely made me smile!! I can totally picture YOU and your guys loving school days with HOD. I know we are...and although I have a girl in the mix our families have a lot of similarities.

I'm thinking that it sounds like your oldest is ready for CTC. Preparing does give a great overview of history, and we really enjoyed our year with it. But if your son fits in CTC, I think that is the way you should go. He's not going to "miss" anything by not using it. It really does work to jump into HOD wherever is the best fit for your child. The guides do all build on each other in skill (and sometimes content), but they're not prerequisites for each other. My oldest jumped in with Bigger, and he's doing great (even though I know he would have enjoyed the younger guides if we'd been using HOD then)! You know your child best, but if in looking at the placement chart you think it looks like he's ready for CTC, I'd go for that. He will be digging deeper in that time period, and he'll be more independent which will allow you more time with the little guys. I think that you'll be needed for an hour (or just a little more) for him in that guide.

I think your 8 yo sounds like he's ready for Beyond. This should take him 2-2 1/2 hrs to do.

I was wondering if maybe your 6 yo would be ready to combine with the 8 yo...but I'm thinking maybe this wouldn't work well either? For your sanity, would beginning slowly with LHFHG work? Your 4 yo could join you for a few things. I did this during our past year with my little ones who were 3 and 5. He did all the activities with us and listened in on the readings (just didn't do any phonics or handwriting things). Here's where I shared how I split the boxes up to slow the guide down. I spent about 30 min with them together. (And then Allison had handwriting to finish & we spent about 15 min on phonics.) viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5600

I know that Carrie reccommends when you're just starting with HOD to try to only do 2 guides. So, maybe she or Julie (my3sons) will be able to pop in and help you see if that could work for you, but those are my thoughts after reading about your boys.

Kathleen

[mamayi]

Welcome Kathy!
I enjoyed your sense of humor that came through on your post. You must have lots of fun in your home!
Have you looked at the placement chart to see where each of your children fit individually? That is a great help when first starting out.
It is not as difficult as it may seem to do more than one guide at a time.
I totally understand about getting boys to write. It's like pulling teeth to get my oldest son to do his writing but at least we've seen progress this year!

From what you've shared about your boys it sounds like your oldest might fit well into Preparing or CTC, your second son into Beyond (we just finished that program and it was a great fit for a 7 year old boy!). Great books to read with lots of discussion and appropriate amount of writing. Your third son might enjoy LHTH and having his own "school time" with mom. And like most fourth children your little guy can tag along and will probably end up learning a lot by osmosis! .

HTH and I am sure that once you get started using the guides you'll be amazed at just how smoothly your days can go.

Andrea

[momof4busyboys]

Wow ladies!

Thanks so much for all of your input! I'm quite certain now that ds #3 (6) will be doing LHFHG and that ds #4 (3) will be doing LHTH. How long will each of those take on average?

Also, ds #2 (8) will be doing Bigger. Is any of this independent work? How much time will it take? He is a reluctant writer, but we used the "spine" in BLHFHG last year for history. Loved it ... but don't want to read him the same history. A little concerned about much writing, because this is where I lose my mind (lots of moaning and groaning)!

For ds #1 (10), I'm thinking hard about C to C. He is almost finished R & S Beginning Wisely, so should move smoothly into R & S Building With Diligence. He is very conscientous and does his work without argument (most of the time). As I read through the guides, this appears to be more independent.

With what I have laid out here, there will be four different levels ... a bit intimidating. Am I biting off more than I can chew here. I'm completely unorganized. I'm figuring on getting the two younger boys taken care of while the older boys are doing there independent work. Then, I'll get C to C son working on the rest of his reading while I work with the Bigger son. Can I do this?

Can someone give me an explanation of DITHOR. Is this like the child reads a chapter and then fills out a sheet. I honestly haven't researched it too much. I've just been trying to figure out placement. What do I do now? I'll try to read more on that later.

Thanks for all the help and advice!

Kathy

[Kathleen]

Kathy,

I think it sounds like you've got your boys placed well...but I'd start out slowly. I think that may be a lot to bite off with being new to HOD. I know that Carrie reccommends starting out with 2 guides if possible when you're new to it, although she's doing 4 programs with her boys because of how they're spaced AND writing a new guide for us every year.

Maybe you could stagger start your boys. You could get the oldest 2 going 1st. You could go through the 1st unit or 2 of CTC with the oldest to make sure that he knows what he has to do in the independent boxes (which will repeat each unit). I told you earlier that CTC is going to take an hour-hour and a half of you each day.
Bigger will be the most "teacher-intensive" of the guides. None of the boxes are designed to be independent. Parts of it are...but the idea is that you're starting them on everything. Teaching the English lesson - then they finish. Doing the math activity - then they complete the assignment in the workbook. Cursive would be independent. The notebooking & vocabulary are things they'll complete on their own. I know that Carrie has said that you could easily turnn over the science box to your child to do independently if they're capable of the readings. Bigger is a year where there are a lot of skills taught to the child that they grow into being able to do independently as you move forward. Grant balked at the writing...but I know he would have no matter what we were using. I know he really enjoyed everything we did in Bigger, which I'm sure made the writing more fun than it could have been. But, I think that because of the upped level of writing in about 3rd grade compared to early elementary years, it's an adjustment no matter what. (Especially for boys! ) The whole program is designed to take 3 1/2 hrs. (But I honestly can't remember a break down of exactly how much needed me. You could easlily do some with him and move to younger ones. This is what I did!) I just looked back at your original post...there is a lot of discussing & oral narration in Bigger. I'm sure Stephen will love that! (My talker, Grant, sure did! ) I think I'd also go through the Emerging Readers with him - the schedule is in the appendix of the guide. You could start wherever he fits - like if the 1st several books are ones that are too easy for him, skip those and pick up with what you're ready for.

Next, I think I'd start LHFHG - half speed even if it keeps you sane and makes adding to the day easier. You could bump it up to full speed after a couple weeks when the older boys are getting into their groove. It takes 1 1/2 hrs total.
Then I'd either just let the youngest enjoy tagging along this year, or you could add in LHTH. But you could wait quite a while to make sure it won't be too much for your 1st HOD year - like a few months. LHTH only takes 20-30 min to do. And it has received rave reviews here at our house!! There's a lot of learning packed into it, and it is really enjoyable for that age!

For scheduling, I think it was Carrie that I saw suggest to decide what your main goals are for the year and put those things at a time where they won't easily be skipped. So, if you really want to get your 6 yo reading or whatever the main things are. Don't put them at a time when you're likely to throw in the towel!

DITHOR is the reading instruction that you'd need for your oldest. It's scheduled into the guide to be done 3 days a week. There are student pages that the kids use with it...but it's MUCH more than just a "read a chapter fill in a worksheet" program. It really teaches the kids to read with Biblical discernment as you discuss godly character qualities with your kids and how you either do or don't see these displayed in the characters in the book. I've only used the 2/3 plans within it, but at that level the child is reading some (not always a whole chapter) and then you're discussing a few questions with them. More like a little book club with different story elements emphasized. Depending on how much your oldest likes writing, you could choose to use the 2/3 level (less writing) or the 4/5 level to get started. Then you'd choose books at his reading level to use with it. You'll get through 5 of the genres in a year by using it 3 times per week like CTC suggests. I'd wait to use it with your 2nd son until he's through all of the Emerging Readers.

Kathleen

[momof4busyboys]

Wow Kathleen!

Thanks so much for all the information. I'll read it about 10 more times to try to digest everything. I wonder if you have ever used DITHOR as a kind of book club with three of four kids discussing ... maybe on the fifth day which isn't scheduled? Also, has anyone used any of this in a co-op setting? There is so much amazing information on here.

Thanks Bunches!

Kathy

[Carrie]

momof4busyboys,

I honestly think the best route to go first would be to find where each child fits as an individual (on especially the first page of the placement chart linked here): http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

Then, the next things to ponder will be how well your almost 6 year old does listening to longer chapter book style read-alouds, how the oldest child feels about written work in general (which we already know for your little almost 8 year old), how well your older two follow written directions, and how much your older two are used to working independently. These considerations will make a difference in the best placement for your kiddos.

I'm thinking that the amount of writing in Bigger will be a source of frustration to your almost 8 year old and that Beyond would likely be a much better fit (and then would be better in the long run, which is something to really weigh). I'm also pondering between Preparing and CTC for your oldest, and am not clear enough on a few areas to advise you about him.

For your 6 year old, I am also not quite clear on whether he could combine up or down possibly, depending on how well he listens to longer read-alouds. It is possible that you could begin your older two in their programs and have your 6 year old listen in with Beyond with your 8 year old taking what he can from that program, while doing the 3R's from LHFHG. Then, the following year, you could formally begin all of LHFHG with him (using the grade 1 options) and move your then almost 9 year old up to Bigger Hearts and your oldest up a level too.

If you get a chance to pop back and share those things, then we can talk about possible options and advise you even better.

Blessings,
Carrie

[momof4busyboys]

Oh Carrie:

I have to begin by saying .... THANK YOU! I brought my children home from PS so we could spend more time focusing on God and our faith, and teaching our children about missions and reaching out to those in need. We failed miserably this year because we were so busy trying to complete the worksheets. I lost my focus. I know after seeing HOD that you have a heart for missions and outreach and for sharing God with your children and others. Thank you!!! I can't wait to REALLY incorporate God into our school.

Thanks so much for your answers and questions. I'll try to give more information, because I sooo need help. I have been on the computer trying to put together some sort of an order for about 2 hours, and I'm so confused.

Jonathan (10) is my wonderful child who keeps me sane. He is the polar opposite of the 8-year-old. While he is not crazy about school, he is compliant and willing to do his work. He loves anything history and will pick up books to read just because ... I have been tottering back and forth between PHFHG and C to C. I'm leaning toward PHFHG with reading extensions. He is kind of borderline when I do the placement charts. I have already talked to him about doing school 4 days a week with the 5th day set aside to co-op (I LOVE TO TEACH U.S. HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY and usually have some kind of a class going on at my house on Friday). Also, the 5th day would be set aside for extra independent history reading (extension package). Jonathan is ecstatic!! He would be doing Level 4 R & S grammer. I'm really not sure about Singapore math. We tried before, and didn't do so hot. Debating trying again, as it is scheduled out for us. I LOVE THOSE BOXES! I had planned to start him on Teaching Textbooks (Grade 5) until I read your post. It kind of makes me a little hesitant. Any suggestions? Creative writing is an area we have definitely slacked off on (Okay, I will confess we have completely ignored it). I am very excited to be including that in his curriculum next year. Any words of wisdom? ... Jonathan does work very indepently. He asks questions, but doesn't have to have you sitting beside him in order to do his work. He prefers to go to his room and do his reading.

Stephen (8). Yea, he's the one!! LOL! I'm currently looking through MFW Adventrues (borrowed from friend) and trying to rewrite it with the boxes (LOVE THOSE BOXES). I looked at BLHFHG, but a lot of the books we had already read. Like you Carrie, I'm afraid Bigger might be a little much. I was thinking of using MFW Adventures (rewritten with BOXES) this year and then moving into bigger the next year. I love the state study in MFW. Honestly, no matter what I do ... Stephen is going to take the most time. You have to stay with him and encourage him (encourage sounds so much better than scream at him) in his written work. Since he is an emergent reader, I still have him read to me a lot. I catch him making up some pretty interesting words, and want to help him before bad habits are formed.

Chris (5) would never sit still for a chapter book. He loves to be read to, but I don't think he could comprehend and stay with us on the longer books. I really think he would love LHFHG. He'll be 6 in October, but a young 6. He's not as mature as my other ones were at that age. Does that make sense? He will start formal phonics this year. Do you have a preference on books? I can't decide which of the two you suggest would be better for a wiggly little boy. When you say "3R's from LHFHG" does that mean just pop him in with his brothers for reading and such, then start working on the right side of the book for the rest. If I do that, would we be able to do LHFHG the next year, but just pop up a level on the 3 R's. I admit I'm confused, but I would love to be able to use the same TG two years for him.

David (2) will be 3 in August. After looking at the samples for LHTH, I know that 30 minutes would be the kick-off to our morning for our entire family. The older boys will love learning the finger plays and then doing them with their little brother throughout the day. The older ones could take turns reading to David and Christopher, and then Christopher could tell the stories back to David as they look at the pictures. I totally see this as an opportunity for my boys to teach their brother, and am already smilling at the image. They are sooo close. Praise God!! I am most excited about LHTH because I know that it will be precious time for us together before breaking off into different parts of the house.

As I look back over what I wrote, I become even more confused. I KNOW God put HOD in front of me, and that it is going to be wonderful for my children. I just have to work out the kinks. Thanks for your patience and all of your wonderful advice!

By the way, I wasn't able to attend the NCHE conference in NC this year so am debating running up to Richmond in a couple of weeks. I think the gas money would be less than trying to ship 3 or 4 curriculums to my house. Getting to meet you guys one on one would definitely be a bonus! Just thought I'd warn you ahead of time. LOL!!!

God Bless!

Kathy

[momof4busyboys]

Oh my goodness. I just realized that you guys aren't going to be in Virginia.

[my3sons]

Wow, this is a great thread, Kathy! I DO think the Lord has helped you find HOD, and I do think you are going to love it. I love the boxes too... check... check... check... we're done! Very freeing. I have enjoyed reading this entire thread. It is so neat to see a good plan unfolding. I know Carrie will get back to you too, but in the meantime, I do think PHFHG is a good placement for your oldest. For your 8 yo, how many books have you done of Beyond? If it's just a few, it would be worth the repeat. HOD will have a fresh outlook on it due to the way the left side of the plans are written. Doing MFW ECC will not be the same as doing Beyond or Bigger (even if you do put in the boxes), and this may upset the balance HOD has of making it easy to do multiple guides at the same time. I am wondering if ds can either do Beyond even though a few of the books may be a repeat, or could begin Bigger Hearts half-speed doing it over 2 years, or could sit in on younger brother's history/science in LHFHG? Any of these options would probably work, and then we can fine tune his LA/math accordingly. For your 5 yo, LHFHG half-speed would work well, left side of plans one day, and right side of plans the next day - probably daily phonics though. We did most of LHFHG half-speed (finished it full-speed) and liked that pacing very much. I love your idea of starting your day with LHTH - what a neat picture you've painted in my mind of your family all getting into teaching the little guy! Keep posting here until you have "placement peace"!

In Christ,
Julie

[momof4busyboys]

I do have a peace about 3 of the 4 boys. Stephen (8-year-old) still has me guessing. That's about right. He always stretches me. Praise God! How boring life would be without my little munchkins!

One thing I am still trying to figure out is the history with Jonathan (10 and 95% sure PPHFHG). I have always been so hands-on with history. If Jonathan is doing all this independent reading, how am I going to be up on what is going on. Will our "Storytime" correlate so we are in the same mindset, or will I need to pick up the book in the evening and read it myself so we are on the same page.

You all have given such wonderful advice and such great "food-for-thought". I think once I figure this out, things will go so much better next year. I cannot do another year of pulling together all my materials. I'm too ADD for such things.

Thanks again for all the wonderful advice, and PLEASE KEEP IT COMING!!! I cherish and reread every note about 5 times. It really has helped me to hone in on what will work for my kids.

I'm looking forward to one day being able to pass on our HOD experiences to other moms like me with thoughts that run in 50 different directions at any given moment.

You guys are a HUGE BLESSING!

Kathy

[my3sons]

One thing I am still trying to figure out is the history with Jonathan (10 and 95% sure PPHFHG). I have always been so hands-on with history. If Jonathan is doing all this independent reading, how am I going to be up on what is going on. Will our "Storytime" correlate so we are in the same mindset, or will I need to pick up the book in the evening and read it myself so we are on the same page.

The PHFHG plans actually still have the parent reading the "Reading about History" box of the plans, but the science and the extensions are to be read independently. CTC is the first guide that has the student doing the history reading. So, you could still do the PHFHG reading or have your ds do it if you wanted. Last year in CTC, I still kept tabs on the history by skimming it before his narrating, and by skimming it before reading his written narrations. I chose the history-related read-alouds, and since those are matched to the core history readings, I felt like I could keep abreast of it that way too. The time we spend doing "Genesis Finding Our Roots" and "A Child's Geography" also kept me in tune to the time period. I thought I'd be sad to give up the core history reading, but I confess the opposite was true. I thought my ds would be sad for me to give that up, but again, the opposite was true. He loved those books and enjoyed reading them on his own! I just wanted to encourage you about this coming independence - it's a good thing. Hope something here helps as you ponder!

In Christ,
Julie