Placement Help Please

[MommyMc]

I am trying to figure out our curriculum for next year (barring any major medical emergencies, flooding houses or currently unscheduled 3.5 week trips... and I suppose there is still the possibility that a baby could be born before the end of the year... ).

Currently we are using Bigger (left page) doing 5 days in 3 days. I usually double up two days per unit and then do one single day. So, we get 7-9 days finished per week. I had originally purchase Bigger planning to use it for the 2008-2009 school year with extensions and even at that, I thought that my oldest was probably ready for a bit more, but that I didn't think that I could actually accomplish using two different guides for the two kids AND keep up with my littles. The reason I appreciate HOD SO much is that it has so many of the resources that we already used and loved (even before I found it). Anyway, we have had many family emergencies in the last couple of years and my schooling did not always go as I planned. We always get to the "3 R's" and my kids do a lot of science reading and biography reading and a lot of historical fiction reading, but I haven't always gotten my "plans" done as I would like. I have always created my own history curriculum using a combination of ideas from Greenleaf Press, Sonlight, Veritas Press catalog, and My Father's World catalog (among other things). We never really finished studying the Reformation the way I would have liked or used all of the books that I have for those studies, but in January, I decided I wanted to pull out Bigger and move on before my older kids were WAY too old for it . So, we plunged in.

Here is what we are currently doing:

History, Bible, Poetry, Hymn:
Left Page of Bigger with extensions (plus some Sonlight readers and Read Alouds since I was given a complete curriculum for Sonlight 3 and Sonlight 4). My kids also take piano lessons and I work on exposing them to various classical composers. They each read 2-6 chapters of their Bible (ESV) per day and write down things that they learned.

DITHOR:
We had never done a "formal" reading program and so I wanted to start "easier" for my kids. My daughter is using Level 4/5 and my son is using level 2/3. They will both easily move up to the next level next year. If I had known for sure what it was like, I would have moved them up this year. We have really enjoyed this new addition to our studies.

Science:
A Beka Science "Observing God's World" (6th grade book). We were given this and since previously I had not gotten all I wanted to get done, we started using these books with the third grade book. Next year my daughter will probably use Apologia General Science and my son will probably use whatever is in the HOD guide. My kids also read lots of Answers in Genesis books and lots of biographies (Sowers Series and others) of famous scientists. I have currently had them reading the Science in Colonial America and talking about it, but we have not done the experiments as this is really an "extra" and not our main science.

Math:
My daughter has finished through Singapore 5B and is currently using Saxon 7/6. She will probably do a Pre-Algebra curriculum next year but I haven't decided between Saxon, Teaching Textbooks, Math-U-See or trying Videotext Algebra.
My son is almost finished with Singapore 4A and is also using Saxon 5/4. At the rate he is going, I imagine that he will be mostly finished with Singapore 5A by the end of the year. I let him do that for about 15-20 minutes per day. He spends about 30-45 minutes minutes per day on Saxon, for about 1 hour of math per day. He will probably be partway through Saxon 6/5 by the end of the year.

English:
My daughter is in R&S English 6.
My son is using R&S English 3. He will easily finish it by the end of the year and may start English 4.

Other Studies:
My son uses A Reason for Handwriting to continue improving his cursive.
My daughter meets with a family friend and is getting tutoring in French. (She really wanted to and since she used to be in gymnastics which took up a LOT of time AND money, we figured an hour of French tutoring a week and 15-20 minutes of studying per day wasn't too much. )

My daughter is going to be 12 in April and will be in seventh grade next year. My son turned 10 this month and will be in fifth grade next year. I also have a son who will be in kindergarten, a daughter who is three and a daughter who will be one this month.

Anyway, here are my options for next year and I wondered if anyone had any thoughts:

Option 1:
Preparing for son with extensions
CTC for daughter with extensions

Option 2:
CTC for both.
Extensions for daughter, as written for son.

Options 3:
CTC or Preparing for son.
RTR for daughter. By the placement charts she could do it. Age-wise it's a better fit, but I hate to see her miss CTC.

[my3sons]

Thanks for sharing about your dc here! This is a tough one, as you have many good options here. You did an awesome job of telling about your dc, and you can be so proud of them; they are doing well and will love doing HOD. I am wondering if you have a preference of combining or not combining? Are you equally open to either, or do you prefer one? This past post may be of some help, as ladies share where they combine or not, and why:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5290

I am also wondering how your ds does with writing in general. Does he do a fair amount of writing each day quite easily - say several paragraphs or more? Have your dc done some of the CM type things, such as oral/written narrations and dictation? One last question - how about writing creatively? Sorry to ask more questions , but I think these few things may be the little details that would make me more confident about giving placement advice.

One general thing I'm thinking, which may or may not be true for you, is that I enjoy having a year between teaching HOD guides. It just keeps things fresh for me as a teacher. For this reason, I'd lean toward either doing the 2 of them in CTC with extensions for your dd, OR, I'd have ds do PHFHG and dd do RTR. However, that is just one general thought I had that may or may not be a consideration you have. I'll check back, and I know others will too, and we'll chat it over until you have a placement that works best for your goals.

In Christ,
Julie

[MommyMc]

Julie,

Thank you so much for your response! I have not gotten back to this since I have had sick children, then company and then been trying to keep up with school. However, it has been heavily on my mind. I had read and pondered your response, but was wanting to get back to you in order to gain more insight.

Thanks for sharing about your dc here! This is a tough one, as you have many good options here. You did an awesome job of telling about your dc, and you can be so proud of them; they are doing well and will love doing HOD. I am wondering if you have a preference of combining or not combining? Are you equally open to either, or do you prefer one? This past post may be of some help, as ladies share where they combine or not, and why:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5290

We have ALWAYS combined. My second born has always been very "academic" even though he is a boy. He would sit and work on puzzles or look at books for HOURS at age 2. He knew how to read when he was barely 3 (and I discovered this when he brought me a chapter book that he had never seen before at the library and started reading it to me!). So, when my DD was in kindergarten he just naturally listened in on anything I read to her. He would play quietly while she did her math and handwriting. Things just naturally progressed like that. So, we have ALWAYS combined for science and history and they have always done their own math and LA. However, as my DD is progressing toward high school, I feel she needs to be a bit better prepared, that I don't WANT him quite that advanced (whether he could do it or not) and that he's not quite ready. That is why I was thinking of switching to two separate programs for them. Also, next year she will begin Apologia General Science, which would be one more thing that will be separate for them. I thought it might be a perfect time for them to start to "move apart" in their studies. However, we have THOROUGHLY enjoyed having the younger kids learn the verses from Bigger with us and learn the hymns with us. How many 3 year old children know all of the verses to several hymns by heart? WHAT A BLESSING! So, if we split up, I'm not sure how I'll work things like that out. Also, because it is SUCH a gentle approach to history (and really too easy for my older two), my little kids have been listening in on the history reading as well. I am AMAZED at what my almost 5 year old is retaining! MY older kids are enjoying the extensions and they have also pulled some things off of my homeschooling shelf for added reading themselves and are "beefing up" their own studies. So it is working out fine. But again, as DD moves toward high school, I do NOT want to short-change her. I want her to be prepared.

I am also wondering how your ds does with writing in general. Does he do a fair amount of writing each day quite easily - say several paragraphs or more? Have your dc done some of the CM type things, such as oral/written narrations and dictation? One last question - how about writing creatively? Sorry to ask more questions , but I think these few things may be the little details that would make me more confident about giving placement advice.

As he has gotten older, some of those "boyish" tendencies (and his own natural "bents") have started to come out. Although he does well in language arts, is an excellent reader (aloud, comprehension-wise and retention-wise), and does an "ok" job at writing, I have not really done a good job of doing a lot of narrations and dictation with them. He strongly dislikes creative writing, although he can actually do an okay job at it. I will admit that this is a weak area in our schooling thus far. My DD is also slightly weak in it, but could easily pick it up if "pushed" a bit. She is naturally better at it and is doing well at the writing she does for Rod and Staff English 6, minimal as it is. She has done a small amount of dictation in the past. She does well at comprehension questions and will naturally do some narration about the things we are reading. So, I think it will be a small stretch for her (bigger at the beginning), but if we formalize these things as part of her schooling, she will step into them well as long as I am consistent in following through with her doing them.

One general thing I'm thinking, which may or may not be true for you, is that I enjoy having a year between teaching HOD guides. It just keeps things fresh for me as a teacher. For this reason, I'd lean toward either doing the 2 of them in CTC with extensions for your dd, OR, I'd have ds do PHFHG and dd do RTR. However, that is just one general thought I had that may or may not be a consideration you have. I'll check back, and I know others will too, and we'll chat it over until you have a placement that works best for your goals.

Since I've never "re-taught" anything but English and math, as we've always combined, I'm really not sure how I feel about this issue. I'm thinking that since thing are more independent as the guides go along, that it really wouldn't be that big of an issue for me, but I guess I wouldn't know until I tried it.

Thanks again for your insights!

[my3sons]

I'm glad your dc are well now, and thanks for answering my questions, Anita. I've reread your posts here a few times to really try to think this through, because so many options would work. The more I ponder this, the more I'm leaning toward your ds doing PHFHG, and your dd doing CTC. This fits well for many reasons. First, you are thinking it is time to move your dd ahead of your ds to ensure her being well prepared for high school, and you are wise to consider you do not want your ds so advanced.

The writing, dictation, and narrations are another reason I like this placement. As your dd has not done as much with these CM style skills, CTC will challenge her while still giving her some guidance. CTC's writing program is "Write with the Best", which is outstanding. It is scheduled 2 times a week, which is a nice balance with R & S English's grammar/writing instruction. In RTR, the writing program is History-Based Medieval Writing Lessons, and instruction will be more rigorous and daily. By doing "Write with the Best" with your dd first, you will have given her the tools to be very successful with RTR's writing the next year. Meanwhile, the creative writing in PHFHG is one time a week and is modeled after Robert Louis Stevenson's poetry. It is an excellent way to get dc excited about creative writing, as the guided lessons in PHFHG's LA box naturally lead them to be successful with it. My ds was not a fan of creative writing until we did PHFHG's creative writing, and he just bloomed then. This paired with the R & S English grammar/writing instruction will be a nice combination for your ds. Also, PHFHG has guided written narration lessons, so you will be able to help him learn how to do this, rather than CTC's plans, which start with guided written narration lessons, but then taper off quickly to allowing the students just to do them on their own. Your dd will be fine with this, but I don't think it will be enough instruction for your ds. Overall, there is less writing in PHFHG than CTC, so your ds will be able to thrive with PHFHG without being overwhelmed with too much writing, as he is a typical boy and not so crazy about that.

I agree with you that teaching guides back to back is not such a big deal when the dc are older and the guides are more independent. It also sounds like you enjoy adding other things to your day as well, extra Bible reading/notes, French, several math programs, science, etc.. Only you can know what you want your day to look like, but you will see PHFHG and especially CTC are quite a step up in rigor. You may want to try to cut out some of the extras, or maybe start with just the HOD plans for a month and then add back in any extras you still would enjoy? I just want you to fully enjoy HOD and your dc too, without being overwhelmed or missing anything. I say this also because I think you would LOVE doing LHFHG with your 5 yo, and maybe eventually LHTH with your 3 yo. Just an idea! You will know best what you want to do here, but I think PHFHG and CTC would be a nice fit for your precious dc. Please let us know what you are thinking, and we will kick around thoughts with you until you find a placement you feel is just right for your dc! HOD is such a blessing - I'm so glad you've found it, and also that you are part of this board!

In Christ,
Julie

[Carrie]

MommyMC,

My3son's has done a great job of helping you talk through the considerations for choosing an HOD program, and you have done a terrific job of describing your kiddos and what you're thinking. So, at this point, you have several good options that you're pondering for your kiddos.

As I'm reading through your posts on this thread, I'm feeling that you have truly enjoyed combining in the past and have been willing to do that even if it meant adding to an easier program to make that work for your family. With that thinking in mind, and basing this on what you shared (so correct me if I'm off-base), I'd lean toward either of your two combining options as being a good fit for your family goals.

While you could easily combine your older two children in either Preparing Hearts or CTC, I'd lean in the Preparing Hearts combination direction for a few reasons. One reason is that I've always thought it is easier to beef up an easier program than it is to water down one that is too difficult or mature. So, adding for your daughter would likely be easier than pulling back for your son.

Another factor is that your son could likely benefit from the written narration lessons, oral narration practice, and guided creative writing lessons found within Preparing Hearts. They are a necessary stepping stone to the work required in CTC. Otherwise, you will end up teaching these skills in CTC, rather than being able to assign them independently as intended. Preparing Hearts also lends itself well to use by two quite different students as it has separate Deluxe Packages and Extension Packages with reading material for each.

Another thought is that since your older daughter's 3 R's are firmly in place, and she will be using Apologia General Science, plus Level 6/7/8 of DITHR she'll be in good shape preparation-wise for her lead-in to high school. So, spending time in Preparing Hearts wouldn't be a set-back for her,as strong preparation in the 3R's and in science, are the most necessary components for high school readines.. And, if you get going in Preparing Hearts and find you need more for your daughter, you could easily move her up to CTC or RTR if needed (giving you a great back-up plan). A final consideration is if you're planning to have your littles listen in at all to the history content, Preparing would be more friendly for little ears.

So, that is my thinking. Yours may be very different. The plan My3son's laid out is also a very good one and would work very well, it just truly depends on whether you desire to combine or not. So, your family goals and available time will really play the biggest part in your decision. You have several great options to ponder.

Here is a thread with some suggestions for adding more to Preparing Hearts for a 7th grader, should you choose to go in that direction. Link:viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1458
Link: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3285

I will say in an update to the last thread linked above that we do now schedule Famous Men of the Middle Ages within RTR, so if you're planning to have your daughter do RTR, you may instead wish to use Guerber's revised Story of the Middle Ages on the Nothing New Press website to extend the history content for the Middle Ages. This book does have some content issues with violence to be aware of but is a possible substitution for Middle Ages. Anther option would be the Ellwood Kemp book from Yesterday's Classics for the Middle Ages. It is shorter but would work well too.

Blessings,
Carrie

[MommyMc]

Thanks ladies! As usual, you have done an excellent job considering the situation and laying out options.

After reading, pondering, praying, pondering, reading some more, praying some more and pondering some more... well you get the idea... I think that I have some "tentative plans" for next year. Please tell me how you think this will work:

DD (will be age 12, 7th grade):
CTC (extensions?)
Apologia General Science
Pre-Algebra
Rod and Staff English (finish 6, start 7)
DITHOR 6/7/8
Whatever writing was with CTC-- I can't remember off the top of my head right now.
Continue with French tutor.

I plan to buy the extensions for her and see how it goes-- the extensions are one of my kids' favorite parts of Bigger-- but I know that CTC is a HUGE step from that.
I'm not planning on having her do HOD science. She might read the books if she has time and wants to do it. She ALWAYS is looking for something to read and LOVES biographies and science and historical fiction.
I haven't settled on Saxon Algebra 1/2, TT Pre-Algebra, MUS Pre-Algebra or starting Videotext Algebra slowly.

I think she can do it. I'd like to split the two kids as DD gets to high school and since they will be doing science separately anyway this year (in addition to English and Math), I think this would be a good year to do it. (It would also give her some extra reading if she has spare time. I'll let her read the Preparing books if she wants to and has time. We've already done more than 1/2 of them recently. So, she could just "fill in the gaps.")

DS (age 10, will be 5th grade):
Preparing plus extensions
Singapore finish 5A. Do 5B and possibly start 6A or do something else.
HOD science in preparing manual
Rod and Staff English 4
DITHOR 4/5
Writing in Preparing-- Why can't I remember the writing material right now?

He is VERY familiar with Grandpa's Box. He's read it 5 or 6 times since he has had it before I ever heard of HOD. We've also read CHOW recently. But, I think the other books will round it out well anyway. It will be good to focus on his narrating and writing skills.

DS (will be age 5, kindergarten):
Phonics, finish learning to read
A Reason for Handwriting K and start Book A
MCP K math
Read-aloud time
Scripture memory
Might consider HOD for 1st grade, especially if things go well with the other two.

DD (age 3-4):
Tag-along with DS age 5 Read-alouds
Tracing, cutting, pasting, puzzles, dolls, blocks, shapes and pegs, etc...
Scripture memory

DD (age 1):
Keeping everyone busy
Learning to talk
Listening to stories
Making messes and learning to help pick them up.
Growing up too fast

The other three thoughts that I still keep "kicking around" are:
Combine both in Preparing (as Carrie suggested).
Combine both in CTC
Bump DS up to CTC and DD up to RTR (but this may be a stretch)

[my3sons]

Anita - I like your plan (12 yo dd in CTC and 10 yo ds in PHFHG), and I think it fits the goals you've laid out. You are well on your way to making your placement decision and will soon be enjoying HOD with your dc. Just a few thoughts - In CTC, R & S English is alternated with "Write with the Best", which is the writing program. We've really enjoyed doing 2 days of "Write with the Best", and 2 days of R & S English. I'm not sure how many levels you want to get through of R & S English, but you may enjoy half-speed if you'd like to alternate the 2. Of course, full-speed R & S English would work just fine as well. HOD suggests completing R & S English 6 by Grade 8, as it's quite advanced - but each family may have different goals for English, and it's very easy to adapt for those goals.

As far as the extensions, the PHFHG Extension package contains books at the mid-fifth to upper seventh reading level, and is typically suggested for 11-12 yo dc. The CTC Extension Package contains books that are at a mid-sixth to upper seventh grade reading level. Since CTC covers the Ancients time period, HOD makes these comments:
Due to the more mature content of the books within the ancient time period – both in the violence that was prevalent during this period and the depravity of the worship of pagan gods – this extension package is best suited for mature 6th and 7th graders who are strong, independent readers. A schedule for these books is provided in the Appendix of Creation to Christ. Books are at a mid-6th to upper 7th grade reading level. For very sensitive 6th or 7th graders, or for those who are not yet strong readers, we recommend the Basic Package Option 1 – History Set for the parent to read aloud instead.

All extension packages have scheduled readings in the Appendix, as well as a suggestion of rotating response activities. I just thought some of this information may help you as you make the decision about extensions. I know you know your dc best and will probably be inclined one way or the other in regard to the extensions. I will say that both PHFHG and CTC (especially CTC) are very full programs already, but the extensions can be a wonderful addition within the right situation.

I think you are going to truly enjoy doing HOD with your dc. Keep asking questions until you fine tune your placement - we love to help one another here.

In Christ,
Julie

[Kathleen]

Anita,

I had one thought about the extensions for Preparing & CTC that would be a little different from Bigger. Not sure if it'll be helpful, but it might give you something else to think about. In Preparing and CTC (if you choose the history option for read-alouds), your kids will already be getting historical fiction read aloud & independently in the "normal" schedule. I'm guessing they've loved it so much this year with Bigger because it's great stories that back up the history reading. So, I don't think you'd be missing that with either guide if you opt not to use the extensions.

Kathleen

[MommyMc]

Thank you Julie and Kathleen for those additional things to consider.

As I have been looking at the placement charts some more and looking at the catalog some more, I am pretty settled on Preparing with extensions for my son. He actually would place in CTC for everything except narration. Even the dictation would be fine. He would be at the lower level of grammar instruction (as he will just be starting English 4, but since that is included in the lessons, I am assuming that is not a problem. He already is very independent in much of his work. So that is not a problem either. But I would like to have a fun, easier year where he can feel very successful. To be honest if I went ONLY by the placement charts, the ONLY thing that he does not place perfectly in CTC is narration. Even as I type this I doubt myself, but I need to remember what I just said: "I would like to have a fun, easier year where he can feel very successful." As far as the extensions, I have decided that we will see how things go. I only need to purchase two books. we have all of the others. We've used some of them, but some have been sitting on the shelf waiting for that "perfect opportunity." Since he recently read ALL of the economy package, some of the science add-on, half of the basic package and about one-third of the deluxe package, I think that the extensions will serve us well. We will still DO the other things, but the extensions will give him something "new and exciting" to look forward to.

Again, my DD falls perfectly into RTR as far as the placement charts, EXCEPT for narration (and actually other than that, would probably be in the NEXT level ). However, I don't want to overload her. We did not use the economy package books for our previous study of the ancients and I think she will enjoy it.

I am going to purchase the science pack (or at least the resources we don't already own ), I may slip some of the things in if she has time and desire to do them. But we will use the General Science as her main curriculum.

She will be more than halfway finished with English 6 by the end of the year. So, she will finish that whether go half-speed or not. Depending on things are going, we will see how far to go in English 7. I am already assuming that she will probably take an online class from Liberty or something in her junior and/or senior year of high school for dual credit in writing. I'm not sure what we will do exactly for grammar. We have several friends who have taken this route and it has worked out well for them. Since she seems to excel in writing and other language arts areas, I am assuming it would work well for her also.

We have more than half of the history interest set (and have used them). So, I will probably purchase both that and the Girl interest set for her (we have some of those also, but she has only read one or two) and use whatever is appropriate. We have four books from the extensions, plus we have read the Cat of Bubastes book. My DD will enjoy listening to it again! But the extensions will definitely be an "extra" to cover those, "Mom, what can I read?" moments.

I really think that she could do and would enjoy RTR as well, but I think we will stick with simpler! Especially since I will be splitting for the first time, and will have a new kindergarten student and TWO busy little girls (including a toddler-- and to me toddlers interrupt school much more than babies or preschoolers ). Plus, since she will be doing General Science instead of the science as written, this will give us some "wiggle room."

Thank you ladies for helping me to "firm up" my thoughts.

[my3sons]

Sounds like a super plan, Anita! Thank you for sharing your plan here, as I always think that is very helpful to others who may be reading this post and have a similar situation (plus, I just love to know what you decided and how it will all work together ). I can't wait for you to start - you'll have to share your box day with us.

In Christ,
Julie

[MommyMc]

Sounds like a super plan, Anita! Thank you for sharing your plan here, as I always think that is very helpful to others who may be reading this post and have a similar situation (plus, I just love to know what you decided and how it will all work together ). I can't wait for you to start - you'll have to share your box day with us.

In Christ,
Julie

I feel relieved to be pretty settled on what we're doing. With my daughter getting closer to high school, I've been a bit more nervous about "what if I'm not doing what she needs?". I'm feeling pretty good about our plan right now. Thanks for your help!

My box day will be a bit in coming. I need to go through and be sure of exactly what I already have and don't have before I order. Also, I need to settle on my math curriculum for DD. Then I'll order everything I need for school next year at about the same time. But I'll admit, I'm getting anxious to order and get my hands on those wonderful materials.