When to start IYW? or do I?

[sewpeaceful]

I am wondering when kids start a writing program with HOD? I saw Write with the Best is scheduled with Creation. There are 2 other writing programs (Ignite Your Writing) in the catalog but I don't see them scheduled anywhere, yet are leveled 4/5. I am looking for short stories, autobiographies, journaling, etc. I know there is a little bit of writing with DITHOR in terms of book report genre and a little bit sprinkled here and there in the R&S English. Is IYW scheduled anywhere? When?

I hate to admit why I am asking but the 2nd and 3rd grade neighbor kids (public school) are bringing home 1 and 2 paragraph works. My dd isn't near that yet she is finishing up R&S English 2 and doing a lot of Beyond work right now.

Can anyone weigh in on this, please?

[my3sons]

I am wondering when kids start a writing program with HOD? I saw Write with the Best is scheduled with Creation. There are 2 other writing programs (Ignite Your Writing) in the catalog but I don't see them scheduled anywhere, yet are leveled 4/5. I am looking for short stories, autobiographies, journaling, etc. I know there is a little bit of writing with DITHOR in terms of book report genre and a little bit sprinkled here and there in the R&S English. Is IYW scheduled anywhere? When?

I hate to admit why I am asking but the 2nd and 3rd grade neighbor kids (public school) are bringing home 1 and 2 paragraph works. My dd isn't near that yet she is finishing up R&S English 2 and doing a lot of Beyond work right now.

Can anyone weigh in on this, please?

Good morning! Well, you have touched on a passion of mine - writing, so I will enjoy responding to your good questions here! In Beyond, copywork of poetry, spelling study (complete with writing sentences each week), 1 x a week grammar study, and short assignments of a sentence or two are the ways writing is addressed. If you are doing DITHOR, additional writing is covered. This is in keeping with the CM philosophy that it is best to copy perfectly correct writing from excellent models before writing independently. I have really come to embrace this philosophy. Having taught ps 3rd. grader for seven years and having done my masters thesis focused on writing (I told you I LOVE writing ), I've come to realize that practicing poor writing by writing too independently too soon only creates poor habits that then need to be undone at a later date. In contrast, copying CM methods encourages accuracy and gradually allows dc to take over the task of writing as they are more able to do it well.

In Bigger Hearts, the writing is increased in many ways - notebooking assignments with copywork, increased copywork, dictation study (or spelling if you choose that), daily R & S grammar (which focuses on teaching grammar for the purpose of writing), science lab reports, etc. In PHFHG, creative writing lessons using Robert Louis Stevenson's poetry as a model are added, as well as guided written narrations, and increased writing in basically all areas - higher levels of dictation, copywork, and greater demands of writing in R & S English. By the time dc do CTC, Write with the Best is added as well independent written narrations, and again, all levels of previously learned writing forms are increased. I have been so impressed with the progression of writing in HOD. My ds is now the age I taught in ps, and what he is producing with HOD is so far above and beyond what we were doing in ps, that I cannot even compare the two. I am not trying to be prideful here, I just am amazed at his progress because writing is NOT a natural interest for him (very logical child).

In ps, my class produced mounds of writing, but most of it was riddled with spelling errors and grammatical mistakes that often went unchecked due to the sheer volume of correcting that would require. Basically, dc were producing writing for the sake of filling time and in so doing, creating poor writing habits that were a struggle to undo. Editing all writing material in all subject materials was impossible, so we had to let that go as teachers in every subject other than the subject of writing itself. For that - I conferenced with individual dc every day on their writing for Writer's Workshop, but I could only get through a handful each day, and what were the rest of the dc doing while I conferenced with the few? You probably guessed it - WRITING MORE! No matter how hard I tried to meet with each child as often as possible, I could not combat the damage done by writing unsupervised and unchecked each day. In hindsight, it would have been better to just have them write once a week, or in even better hindsight, to do CM style methods with them right from the start! (How I wish I'd known about CM back then.)

So, I know this has gotten long , but I would be willing to bet that the average HOD student who has done all of the CM methods consistently as they are planned in the guides would write a better paragraph, with less mistakes and more heart than the average ps student. I'm amazed at my ds's progress, and writing is not even his thing! So, I just want to encourage you that the writing in HOD follows the CM style of writing and incrementally progresses to become more challenging as the years progress and as dc are more able to take on the task of writing properly.

Oh, and HOD carries IYW for people who are only doing DITHOR, and not doing a core HOD program. The reason for this is that the plans in the HOD manuals fill the need for writing already and adding an additional writing program would usually be overkill - unless you were using a core HOD guide with a much older child outside of the target age range suggested by HOD.

Thanks for letting me chat about one of my favorite passions in life - and I hope something here helps!

In Christ,
Julie

[sewpeaceful]

WOW!!! Thank you SO much for such a thoughtful response! Since you clearly have a better grasp of CM, writing and the like, may I ask your humble opinion on where to go from here? If so, please read on, otherwise, please accept my deepest gratitude and have a wonderful day.

My dc are 5 and 7 (almost . I have been overly zealous over the years with my first born (aren't we all at times?). Because of my naivity, the poor thing does not have the strongest foundation in spelling, writing, and reading. Though I must admit, at week 12 with Beyond and Bigger, she seems to be hitting a stride and breaking through some walls. I am very excited for her! Let me explain: both kids do the left side of Beyond together. I then take stuff from Bigger for my 7yo and tweak as necessary. For example: she is doing the level 2 dictation, and very well I may add. She just started Singapore 3A and is breezing through that. I have her reading 3.5-4.7 rated books, averaging around a 3.7 and the lightbulb to comprehension just recently went on. The only writing she has been doing is the spelling Dictation, DITHOR 2/3 orange book, and the occassional sentences or paragraph as assigned in the R&S 2 English. From a writing standpoint, she makes a LOT of mistakes (capitalization, formatting, puctuation, copying words incorrectly, etc) and still struggles with composing her own sentences, or even coming up with her own thoughts for her own sentences. I don't want to push her, but I do want to set her up for success and encourage her. She will be finished with R&S 2 before Christmas break because most of the book was review from her Bob Jones days and she has done well with it because MOST of it is technical: which pronoun to use, etc. And if the assignment is focusing on punctuation, she punctuates perfectly. Things fall apart when doing the Orange book or writing a friend a note (on her own, not mom's prodding).

So, do I go ahead and start on R&S 3 after Christmas break? Do I have her do more copywork? She hasn't started cursive yet (well, she did and we bombed out... thinking about trying Creative Cursive). Ideas? Suggestions?

Thank you so much for your time and thoughts.


Blessings!!

[Carrie]

sewpeaceful,

This has been a wonderful discussion! I would just encourage you to keep going with the daily copywork from poetry as scheduled within Beyond Little Hearts. I would go ahead and begin Rod and Staff 3 after Christmas, but probably lean toward doing it 4 days a week. Anytime your daughter has something to write for the orange book, I would discuss it with her first, copy it on a markerboard, and then have her copy it correctly in her workbook (thus reinforcing correct writing habits). I would check her copywork and her orange book and make sure she corrects any missed punctuation or misspelled words (thus forming the habit of rechecking her work for mistakes).

I would make sure to continue with studied dictation. Be sure that she doesn't move onto a new passage until the previous passage is perfectly written. Then, I would give her time to grow up as she moves through the rest of Beyond. If she's not ready for cursive, I would hold off until next year. There's no reason to push cursive too early. When you do begin cursive, I would definitely give Cheerful Cursive a look. It is simply outstanding (which I can say wholeheartedly after using BJU, Handwriting Without Tears, and A Reason for Writing with my oldest).

Blessings,
Carrie

[3musketeers]

Julie,
I had to print out your post to this thread and reflect on it for a couple of days. I have so many helpful print outs from this board I need to compile them in a notebook . I have a writing question for you as follow up to what has been mentioned here.

I have recently taken a look at BJU Writing and Grammar. I do have to add the disclaimer. That I believe I am through the "grass is always greener syndrome" of homeschooling curriculum. So I don't think that is my issue. But comparing the curriculum to R&S it does seem to draw out the writing process so that there is sufficient time to plan/brainstorm, write, rough draft, and final copy. I have loved R&S and we are in level 4 with oldest ds. The grammar is sweet and in small bite sized chunks. But the writing assignments have always baffled me. They explain the paragraph topic and expect ds to write it without steps to follow and have a final copy by the next day. Is this a scope and sequence issue? Are they wanting to introduce the subject and then expand in later years? Or do they continue through the series to only give a short lesson, expecting the teacher to know enough to prolong the lesson and fill in the rest of the writing process? Is Write with the Best included in CTC to address this?

I have read what you wrote about the CM way. Being a complete CM fan, I am fully on board with being exposed to correct examples until later years, with oral and written narration being the first writing experiences. I also have looked at Write with the Best samples and really liked what I saw. It looks like it takes the writing process and puts it into those small chunks like with R&S grammar. I guess I am wanting to see more accurate application of writing in dc at their current ages. Would CM say exposure now and more application later? What's your take on BJU writing?

Living by grace,
Cindy

[Carrie]

Cindy,

I'm not Julie, but I will weigh in on your questions a bit to see if that helps. We did BJU English with our oldest son for a year in grade 3. It does have solid grammar coverage and does really take apart the writing process into many bite-sized steps. By year end, I was exhausted from the teaching time required of me for BJU English, and while my son could complete the workbook pages in both grammar and writing, it was evident from his daily written work that there was little carry-over from the workbook to his daily writing. I also discovered that by year-end my son dreaded the writing assignments as he felt that they dragged on and took the process apart into so many steps that it took the creative part of writing out of him. For us, BJU was not a fit. On the other hand, others may simply love it.

As far as Rod and Staff goes, I agree that while they do an excellent job of giving examples and guiding kiddos to apply the writing lessons, there is not quite enough repetitive practice in the writing area to make it a habit. So, by combining the excellent writing lessons within Rod and Staff with a program like Write with the Best, you get the best (literally) of both worlds.

Charlotte Mason taught writing primarily through written narrations, varying the type of narration to include all forms of writing as kiddos matured. While we fully believe that written narration practice is excellent writing (and comprehension) practice, we do enjoy the safety of a formal writing program as well as kiddos mature. So, we seek to find those that would fit better with a more CM-style philosophy.

On the other hand, it's important to keep in mind that Rod and Staff grammar would not be in keeping with CM's philosophy of delayed grammar instruction, so at HOD we don't always adhere to all of CM's philosophies. But, the wonderful thing is that HOD easily allows you to utilize your own grammar and writing selections if preferred, without affecting the flow of your HOD guide.

Blessings,
Carrie

[3musketeers]

Carrie,
Thank you so much for your thorough and very helpful response. I was just on the verge of making a decision to switch to BJU, when the posts here have given me much to think about. Being a CM and traditional girl myself makes HOD the perfect fit for our family. I love seeing CM's philosophies genuinely lived out in our home for the first time. Now, I'm leaning to trusting your's and Julie's advice and seeing how writing plays out in guides to come. The 2 guides we are currently using have me sold that you know what your doing!!!

Thanks again for your perspective,
Cindy