Math woes

[srp1997]

From Sarah...

All year I have struggled with my ds. He is a slower worker at times and he especially screeches to a halt in Math. We are doing Horizons Math 4 and long division is slaying him completely. I have been driven by my own desires of mastery to do more than an hour of Math many days. He needs what we call "Math Talk" ( a time for drills, explanations, re-explaining, etc.) and then takes crazy-long to finish his worksheet. Picking erasers, sketching pictures and saying "I need your help" is very time consuming. Of course all this time spent with math puts us off schedule for our other subjects so that we rarely get everything done. We are waaaay behind (especially in Math) and I can't see slowing down any more. We tried switching math programs at the beginning of the year and it failed miserably. I decided to switch back to Horizons but we lost time in the process. I new we would be behind, but I wanted, still, to move at his pace... His pace is kinda slow. Of course we had to be on a 4 day a week schedule because of Classical Conversations, so we couldn't catch up. I am inclined to work Math through the summer to catch up. It makes me nuts to think of not finishing our Math program and starting the upcoming year behind.

I read a post from Carrie today that brought me to tears. She was giving a mom the idea of setting a timer to finish work in 15 minutes and adding 5 minutes to it if the work is unfinished. She suggested coming alongside and working with him in a hurried but loving/teammate fashion to get as much of the work done in those 5 minutes as possible. I love the idea, but how can I apply it to a 4th grader who takes 5 minutes doing a two digit divisor/long division problem. We won't get very far in 15 minutes.

I am weary of the feeling that I'm not ... or he's not...

This is my first year with HOD and I have passed the name around to anyone I think will benefit. I have adored BHFHG. I have done primarily left side of plans (mixed with other things) with my two - 7 and 10 year old boys. The days we can't get to all subjects, they really want to do BHFHG. Still, behind as we are, frustrated as I am, I have no doubts about HOD having been the Lord's perfect fit for us this year. Thank you, Carrie. May the Lord multiply your hours as you tend His sheep.

[Geo]

My son is more than slow, I believe he has a learning disability in math. Struggling can really sap one's confidence.
Developmental math is written for children just like our sons. It is developed to help them become confident
and independent learners. It builds so methodically he won't be asking you for help, day after day. You may need
to lay down any ideas of him working "on level" if you want him to truly master what he is learning, though. I recommend
you look into it. There are tons of homeschool reviews on the internet. CBD has sample pages. The company
has had financial problems due to the economy (publishing costs), so the GPA Smartstore is your best source for
ordering, if you choose to do so.
http://www.gpasmartstore.com/p-35-solut ... kills.aspx

All my best intentions,

[srp1997]

Thank you Geo,

I looked at Developmental Math this morning. My son did the first part of one of the placement tests to see what it is like. Thank you for the suggestion.

Which child do you use this with? What is your long term plan with math (i.e. transition to another program)?

To give background on our math experience with my 10 yr old ds... We started with Saxon Math K and 1. I loved the scripted lessons for introducing new concepts with the proper step by step instructions, but the lessons became very tedious and dry. Then we transitioned to Horizons 2 and 3. Faster paced, color pages, very logically arranged, but the teacher is not really teaching. I felt that my ds needed more of a tutor-like teaching time with me to work on mental math and to cement some concepts, so we decided to switch back to Saxon 4. We began in September with Saxon but the lingo and approach was so different for concepts. The things he could do before were now confusing for him and the pacing was getting to multiplication at lesson 40 when we had already worked hard the year before to master our multiplication tables. At first I really tried to adjust and make it work. It is a great program and I like the transition to text books because the copying skill is important. We did switch back to Horizons in late September. It felt good to be back in the familiar setting.

[Geo]

Lynn,
I am just beginning to use DM with my 7yods. Let me give you some background.We were using Right Start and after
spinning our wheels until the end of April, he still didn't know his numbers, nor could he identify quantities above 3.
Obviously, he is on the severe side of things. A wonderul woman recommended "Mathematics Their Way." After just
2 months, he has greatly improved in recognizing 0-9, count them (somewhat) confidently, and write them. This seems
like an absolute miracle to us. The activities are arranged developmentally . This has been key for him. RS
assumed one-to-one correspondence and that the child was ready to identify groups of quantities...not my son. No crime
on their part, most children know these things or pick them up quickly. I figured that with a little work he would be up to
speed in no time, after all, he is very bright. It didn't happen. I spent the middle part of our school year learning
about dyscalculia (no number sense), and how to remediate it. He has been doing beautifully with MTW, every developmental
step hs been provided for. However, it only goes through 2nd grade. We have some time yet before we outgrow it,but I have
started looking into where we may be headed. I have known about DM for almost 20 years, but have never needed it. I
have taken a fresh look at it recently and can't believe how differently I see it now. Similar developmental progressions
are used in DM that I am using in MTW. I never understood why DM did lessons the way the did, now I do. That's why I am
so quick to endorse it. I feel like I have been using it for the last 2 months...the system, that is. Every concept that is
covered in DM somewhat follows these progressions: Pictoral (or semi-concrete) stage -Connecting stage-Abstract stage.
Actually, I think they have broken down the above into four separate stages. But you get what I mean...no assuming is done.

My order should be arriving in a couple of days. My son will be thrilled, he loves workbooks but still needs a developmental format. I have discovered that hard to find anywhere, much less a workbook. We will stay with MTW until he outgrows it, and use the DM workbooks as supplements and treats in the meantime. My hope is to transition to DM full time after MTW. I am not saying that he will always use DM, who can say what they will be doing so many years down the road? I do know that the system works for him now. Because we have not had him tested I can't claim that he is a dyscalculic, but all the markers are there. I would love to wake up one morning and my son not have these issues anymore. But if that never happens, I am prepared to deal with it. So, give DM a try over the summer? See if it makes a difference for him. I don't know where he placed in the test, but CBD has some imperfect copies that they are selling at a discount ($6.37). The Instructor's guides are basically useless, just answer keys really. BTW, DM doesn't get into all the side-shows in math. They stick to straight-up math concepts: addition, subtraction, multiplication...etc. Also, it is not written to be teacher-taught. The design speaks directly to the child (unless the child is a non-reader). The teaching is in the actual progression of lessons, they are quite logical and well thought out. If it did work for him, how would you deal with the differences from other programs? He probably wouldn't be "on level" and it wouldn't teach to the end of the year test, either. Those may be roadblocks for you.
Oh yeah, thank goodness your son doesn't seem to have severe issues. In all honesty, do you think he has problems learning math, or has it just been style issues? What do you think the real problems are?

Best intentions,
Geo

[Mumkins]

I see you're using Horizons. I thought my DD was mathamatically challenged. Horizon's left her, actually both of us, in tears. It's a year ahead and didn't seem like it had a method to teaching facts. Like instead of teaching +1, +2, +10, etc, it just taught all facts together under 18. I went to MUS, then saxon and now we've switched to Singapore which she atually just said t his morning that she likes! Perhaps your son just needs a new cirriculum?

[srp1997]

mumkins - Thank you for sharing your experiences. I have thought about switching again, but the experts say not to switch Math programs too often. I am afraid of switching to a new program and then finding that it doesn't really work for us and we have to switch back, like it or not, to what we are used to. That is what we did this year and got even further behind because of it. I would be willing to try a new program over the summer. I wish there was a resource out there that allowed you to fill out a placement test and a questionaire and provided you with three suggested fits for your student. I had heard that Singapore went quickly and there were issues with the language or terms. We are doing BHFHG and I do like the Math suggestions which are Singapore based. I am very visual and things make better sense to me when I can "see" them.
Thank you.

[mskogen]

I would say if you are looking for something to try for the summer if you dc fits into 2A or 2B give singapore a try. You have the manual and the books are cheap, @ $7. This is what we did and LOVE the switch! My son is retaining better and I can tell he understands the concepts now!

[Geo]

Sarah,
I bet his problems aren't as much about the ability to learn it, but rather the way he's learning it.
I agree with the other posters, singapore is a good program. I have been using (w/ my 10yodd)
it for about 2 years now with my 10yodd. It really develops mathematical thinking.

"He needs what we call "Math Talk" ( a time for drills, explanations, re-explaining, etc.) and then takes
crazy-long to finish his worksheet."

The instructor's guides have lots of teaching helps and extras, there are drills in the back of the book. We
look at them and she answers them orally (to me).The student textbook introduces the the topic with
explanations, examples and a few practice problems, which you can work through with him.
The student workbook is for independent work and the lessons are fairly short. The program is particularly
strong in strategies for problem-solving. Oh yes, and they do have placement tests. Personally, I haven't found
terminology to be problem. I let my daughter skip alot of the metric problems AND we are running half a
level "behind" (I don't rush them). Even with that, she ended up testing in the 89/90 percentile. Overall, it's
the best math program I have ever used with a developmentally " normal" child. It is a good choice for summer
practice, the lessons are pretty short. Another one of singapore's strength's is it's focus on key topics. Too
many other math program's try to teach too many concepts at one time. The child is not allowed enough absorbtion
time get a solid grasp on the core topics. Their thinking powers are stretched thin jumping from topic to topic. It
is much more effective to do 5 division problems correctly, than do many more incorrectly. It is important to work
within his range of attentiveness, more than that and he can develop the habit of inattentiveness.
Let him taste the reward of excellence rather than over-tax him with a huge menu of topics. It's so worth a try.
Can you imagine several more years of what you have already experienced? More importantly, can he?
Lastly,The format is so simple, he should have lot's of brain space to integrate any differences in approach, or
terminology.

"I like the transition to text books because the copying skill is important".

I agree...in part.
Copywork is better utiltized in language arts, not necessarily math. Exceptions being sequences,
math facts, etc. Apart from that, you are just adding an extra step to an already difficult situation.
He can make that transition much further down the road(if necessary) and it won't be nearly as taxing
as it is now.

[srp1997]

Thank you Geo!
Your input was so thought filled and I appreciate the time you took from your busy schedule to respond to me. The reason I mentioned the copying skill is for testing. In our state, we have to test at the end of the year. So far, I have given the kids the Iowa Test in core subjects. I found last year that he made careless errors because he could not do his "work" in the test booklet and had to transfer the problem and transfer his answer. That is a "skill" that he had not practiced because of the workbook format of the curriculums so far. Is it a reason to choose a program? No, which is why we did not stay with Saxon. I want him to have a solid math foundation strong enough to carry him through higher math skills in the future. A public math teacher friend told me that the foundation of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division is vital. Everything else is built on that. They need to know how to do it and why they do it.

So tell me, the math activities in BHFHG are actually from the Singapore teacher's manual? And there is a workbook that goes with it? I guess I should look up Singapore to find some sample pages.

Thank you again. Singapore sounds very good. I haven't heard any negatives so far. Today ds actually did a good job in his math work. He only needed assistance on these equations ... 5 + n = 3 + (4 x 4) and the long division is getting smoother and smoother. Praise the Lord.

Sarah

[Geo]

Sarah,
I don't even know if you're following this thread any longer, but I'll post a reply to your question, just in case.
Carrie does schedule workbook pages for Singapore Math in the LHFHG on up. The activities that she includes
in the manual compliment or expound on the topics being covered. I don't believe she intends those to replace
the Home Instructor's Guide (HIG) or the textbook. There are non-required supplemental books which can be of
help from time to time.I have the "Intensive Practice" books and "Challenging Word Problems". I use the IP books
when my child needs more time with a certain topic, and CWP for extra practice with word problems. Personally,
I find the HIG's are very valuable to have on hand. They include the drills, tables and teaching strategies
(and answer keys) that you may find very helpful. The textbooks would also be a good source of instructional
exercises. These and the textbooks are non-consummable and hold a good resale value.

Sorry for the delay,
Geo

[srp1997]

Thank you Geo,

One additional question. The activities included in BHFHG, for instance, are made up by Carrie and not included in Singapore resources? They really are good. I was a bit disappointed to see that PHFHG doesn't include these little activities. We are going back through them as review.

Sarah

[netpea]

Actually Yes, the activities in the guides do replace the textbooks. If you are doing the activities, you do not need to use the textbooks. You would just use the workbooks. After 2A/2B, there are no more hands on activities and you will need both textbook and workbook.

[Geo]

Netpea,
Well whadda ya' know! Thanks for correcting me.
I probably shouldn't have answered that one, my apologies.

Geo