Help deciding about a sixth grader

[my3sons]

Well, I am celebrating with you momto7! I think it sounds like you a have a good plan for your family. I am going to link you to a few past threads that may be helpful. The first one is a post in which Carrie explains the concept of a 30 minute meeting time with each child, and how to go about doing that and then sending them to work independently, checking back later with them. I think this may work well for you.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2557
Also, looking at different schedules, including water2wine's schedule which is on p. 2, would probably be helpful:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2093&st=0&sk=t&sd=a ... s&start=15
One last thing, you may want to just do DITHOR 3 days a week. That way, you will cover half of the genres one year, and the other half the next year. This works well for us. I'm so glad you are a part of this board!

In Christ,
Julie

[abtowell]

That is extremely helpful Julie, with the links. I already do the 30 minute thing, but it never seems to be enough. I end up spending 2 hours with the Beyond child and 20 with everyone else ( or none with my oldest)most days. My oldest boy with learning issues has trouble remembering what I taught in his 30 minutes for more than an hour or so. I usually teach him Math and Grammar and then have him do grammar right away so he doesn't forget later. My derailer is usually my Beyond child throwing a fit because she wants my attention and it's not her turn. She is doing so right now, as I type. She threw a fit because she wasn't behaving at the dinner table and was excused. She is in time out, wailing and stomping her feet. She is far better than when we first adopted her ( she used to rage and pull her hair out) but it still is very time consuming. I am never sure who to make wait, it's a constant doubt with me. I need to talk her through her issue, meaning, why were you in time out, and what can you do to do better next time. If I do not discuss it she will not think about it. Honestly, all my other kids I can say I put you in time out because________, please don't do that again or I will have to put you in time out again. That does it for them. She will absolutely go right back and do the same thing again unless you talk about what she can do to do the right thing. Even then you have a 50/50 shot at the right thing the next time. I am always torn do I let her sit until the person's 30 minutes are up, then she might forget what she did? I am not even sure about that, she is inconsistent, one day she remembers exactly what I say and the next she gives me a clueless look and I am unsure if I should just let it go or not. I am apprehensive due to the attachment issues mostly. Plus I have so many people that there is very little leeway if I have 2 fits in the schedule the whole thing can go to pot quickly. I feel as if character is so much more important than academics but when one child is having an academic issue and another is having a chronic character issue it's hard to choose who to help first.

Beyond has been the most doable thing I have found with her. I need to add the others to it, even if I didn't like it ( which I love it so I am glad) for sanity and so they can have time with me too. I had tried to do that with TOG but only 2 kids were getting what they needed as the other 2 didn't understand what was going on. There was too much reading and not enough explaination for their level. I am quite sure everyone will understand at least most of what will be goign on with HOD which will be super. I guess what I need to do is decide what discipline I am going to inact with it as I can foresee her melting down when more than one child is getting attention. I am praying that a few months of 2 hours with her will help her incessant need for attention but I have tried other things that didn't work before attention wise. For her first year with us I carried her in a baby carrier at least half the day everyday when she was 3. I thought a year would be enough but I guess it's too late to go back now. I have included my 4 year old boy with her for at least 30 minutes a day so that she can learn to share better as she is least intimadated by him. So far it's working well and she seems to be enjoying him. It's when I need her to sit and do her math pages, or phonics and i am with an older brother that she throws her fits. I always work with them for a few minutes in the morning while she is doing chores. But, they need me again after her 2 hours and I haven't figured out what works yet. I can see I will need that with HOD too. I am sure any curriculum would require it, since the whole goal is to work independently and learn to teach yourself. I will also need a plan for if she resists the others being in on the left page activities. In TOG she didn't seem to care that we all read togther, she just tore up her socks or my rug instead or listening because it didn't interest her. I was stressed by the situation and couldn't come up with very intruging ways to get her into the story. One of my main likes for HOD. If I am stressed and can't think the little key ideas tell me what I need to drive home and ask questions about so I don't have to think so much. Since she is doing so well with this I am fearful she will not want the others in on this time and will try and prevent it. Any suggestions would be helpful of course.

I am excited though that 3 kids will most likely love it and work well togther at the activity. My 11 year old isn't on board yet. I asked her how she felt about the new idea because I am so excited, but TOG with everyone crashed and burned so bad that even though I am pumped, she is worried. Story time always ended up me telling the Beyond child what to do 50 times and the story and was choppy at best. My 11 year old used to love story time in Sonlight when she and the 2 bigger boys were the only school kids. My older boy never understood well but he was not an interupter or trouble starter in a group setting. She reads all the books to herself now. I don't let on that it makes me sad. I asked if she still wanted me to read to her. She said she does but not if it won't be fun and I knew what that meant.

So anyway off the depressing topic. I do want to point out that I have all the Maxwell books so the schedule itself is not the problem. I have mastered micro managing. All of my chores, and things have cards and are scheduled it's keeping the schedule from going out of control that I struggle with. That and that someone has to be with the baby and I only have 3 kids I can rotate being with the baby. My Beyond child is not trustworthy of baby watching and probably won't be next year either. I am so blessed that my boys are. The last baby they weren't and it was all me and my oldest. It does get easier, and I do see the light alot of days.

As for my tickets that the one lady asked. Go to accountablekids.com. I do like the system. I myself was a Mr. Pearl fan but spaking is exteremely illegal in Germany, and of course a hot topic with most people. I do like Supernannny too though. Plus one of my eldest boys had an anger problem and the tickets truly helped that. It gave him a visual that his anger was taking things from him as opposed to his parents and that my friends was a priceless lesson. Sometimes the boys frustrate me as they don't seem to care about the stars ( you'll see what I mean at the site) but they do care about not having tickets to play so it's not all bad. My husband and I can also go on dates with my eldest without looking like we are playing favorites( my angry son had issue with this when he couldn't go and she could) because if you have a star card you can pick a place to go alone with a parent. So you earn extra facetime with your actions. All in all it's worth a look. I am glad I found it for my older son, but at times it is not good for the Beyond child. In our house if you are out of tickets you can only, color, read a book, or just sit and you must be within 3 feet of a parent when doing so. I have had to inact 3 timeouts while typing this and now my friend is sitting at my feet coloring and will be for another hour because that is how long it will be until there is another ticket earning time. That can be cumbersome for the parent. If you are looking just to monitor TV and games time and stuff tickets are great if you have a repeat offender behaviour wise choose carefully as you can end up more tortured than they are. I wish I could do tickets for the eldest 3 and not her but it would be extremely unfair and before tickets she was in trouble all the time anyway so I don't see how it would change much so I try to just pray that it is a time thing and that if I am faithful and consistent she will be won over tickets or not. My 2 youngest don't do tickets yet. You get a board in 1st grade. We tried it with the 4 year old but they have spend it all now approach and that cna be frustrating.

My free time is up, I have to feed a baby again.

[my3sons]

Oh my heart goes out to you - I know how draining it can be to work on character training, though you have many more dc to consider than me. I am not sure if I understood what you were saying about Beyond - are you saying you are going to do others with Beyond now? I may have totally misunderstood that - but if that is what you are saying, I am thinking that your dd who is doing Beyond will not take kindly to sharing you during that time too. I think if you were able to deal with dd and what's going on with her, that you would be able to finish out TOG with the others - until you have the funds to do Bigger. Otherwise, perhaps you could start trying to sell things and start with Bigger sooner with just the economy package and science adder.

As for your dd in Beyond..., I wonder if your older 3 could rotate through 20 minute playtimes with her in a different area of the house? That would give you some time alone with other siblings. I have my sons do this with my almost 2 yo. I know you are already having them do this with baby, but I think it would be worth the time tradeoff to have them alone. Also, I wonder if the ticket system is just not working for her right now? Does she often throw a fit about this? If so, talking to the older dc and saying she's not ready for the system might help. Timeout didn't work for one of my dc - it worked wonders for another - but my one son didn't seem to change his behavior after timeouts. Is there something else you could do for her? Something that wouldn't require a lot of you keeping track. Perhaps if she finished her Beyond within a timely fashion, she could watch a video and have a snack with it? Or, something she likes to do independently. Perhaps a special crafts basket she could choose from? Perler beads, latch-hook, cross-stitch, etc. ? Our dc think that is special - and I like it teaches them something but is independent once I show them it. She could do it for 20 minutes maybe. Also, another great independent thing for our dc is books on tape or CD. I bet your library has a bunch. We do that 20 minutes a day. That too is independent. If you were able to do some of these things, you could gain yourself at least an hour to power teach the others. You could do their read-alouds at lunch while eating possibly too.

One last thing, when you are doing Beyond, I would have the policy to move on no matter what. Just do what's in the guide and don't ask any more questions or linger longer to see if she "got it". She will take from it what she can. A brisk pace with the idea of finishing as quickly as possible would be good. I used to draw it out - linger longer - add a bit more to see if they were "really" listening or taking enough from it for me. What a mistake that was. They are young. I don't remember much from first grade. What they take from it they do - we need them to enjoy school and not feel like we're constantly quizzing them to see if they listened enough.

I will pray for you. You are such a wonderful mom to weigh so carefully what to do for each of your dc! Continue on in faith - it will get better. I hope something was a help here. God bless!

In Christ,
Julie

[abtowell]

That's helpful the don't linger thing. You are right, she will do it over and over anyhow. I guess I feel like part of the failure for doing first grade twice and since she still can't borrow or carry, among other things, I feel like we aren't in second grade either, really. But, some things she gets because she tells me so maybe I should rejoice in that more and not quizz until she breaks. I didn't feel guitly doing a grade twice when it was my son but he had common sense and she doesn't so I think that is my worry, not the grade but the lack of thought process. I am never sure if she is not thinking at all or made a concious decision to blow it, not schoolwise but all the time. Either way it's bothersome to me. I know the devil tries to get all our goats in his own way and I guess that's my goat. I worry I will make a bad decision and her failure will be my fault. It's harder to fear not than it sounds.

As for the her with other kids, I tried it. That is one of the main Maxwell suggestions as I am sure you know. I put 2 or 3 togther at a time all the time while I am working with another. She gets in a fight with everyone in 5 minutes flat except for the eldest who has no time to give. My elder son and she are like oil and water, so no go there even if it did work with others. Plus my eldest is so lenient. She lets her walk all over her and that's bad for both of them's character. I do let her play something quietly but it is difficult. She hates to play by herself. She is a talker, and by that I mean ADD type talker. Non stop same thing over and over if she can't think of something. She will play with a toy for 10 minutes now if not told to stay at it, which is an improvement over the 2 minutes it used to be. I spent two years teaching one toy at a time. She gave new meaning to pull everything out. Her second family had a housekeeper that picked everything up for her so she didn't learn to pick up until she came to us. I also tried giving her a movie. I would have her do 3/4 of school and then a movie and then one more workbook or something. She wouldn't do the second workbook. She would just daydream the hours away. I guess I feel a little like I am being played because I know she can do it. Like in the spring when she sees those who are done go outside she hurries to get her work done so she can be with people. That works. She's not so motivated to play alone until they are finished, or for a movie most of the time. It is a soppy muddy cold mess right now, BTW. So I feel like if I were to work with her watch a movie and then work with her again I would be teaching her if you give mommy a hard time, mommy will sit with you all the time. In my mind I felt like that was OK for a 5 year old but not okay for a 7.5 year old, even though I know mentally she isn't 7. I wish there was a magic cut off age that I could strive for. Maybe I will try a workbook with no help, then HOD, then activity or movie and then workbook help. I can't do the movie until naptime as my 2 and 4 year old are in the playroom togther most of the morning. She won't sit and watch the movie with them. She either talks over the movie and they get mad or she pushes them out of the chair or something to instigate attention. Y

ou know the more I type I see maybe I haven't resolved as many attachment issues as I thought. I am hoping she is just still angry inside and when it comes out and she realizes no one is going to quit on her again she will stop. I was told when I adopted that it takes twice as long to undo the damage as it did to create it, with my son that was more than true. He was almost 3 when I got him and I have had him 7 years in February. He still does normal kid things like boss people around but he does not go out of his way to do things to get attention like she does. I know you shouldn't compare but he has been my roadmap for unknown territory and she so deviated from the path I thought I had. I have had her 5 years in March, she is nowhere near where he was emotionally after 5 years. I guess it makes me feel like I did it wrong or something. Even thoguh I know no 2 kids are alike. I compound the problem not having something that I can teach her successfully with. Probably why I am so down right ecstatic to have found HOD. It's a guaranteed smile for me at least once a day. Sometimes I even get clapping. That was so what I needed, after all those things that got no reaction or a negative reaction. I think I might go completely delirious if everyone likes it as much as she does. The thoguht of having everyone want to run sit down and listen to school is thrilling to me. I think about it alot when I get bogged down with the what to do with her.

I think I will use my nervous energy on my birthday next week to list stuff on eBay, so I can get Bigger faster. Oh to have known sooner, but that's why hindsight is 20/20. Oh and to the poster who was applauding being a military wife. Gee, thanks, that does make us feel alot better. Especially when they send your husband away and you are thousands of miles away form family and help. My husband is here now but not always. Being paitent when you know no help is coming and support is a long distance phone call or lots of typing is rough. I guess it helps me focus on God more, and that's good, he is free and always here. Hope you have a good visit to Germany there is lots to see. Have they taken you to Edelweiss? You said he is Army right?

[abtowell]

Well,, I tried the don't linger thing today and that went very well. I actually think she listened better. She even had no no food, that wasn't on her diet on Sunday and still did attentionally well today so that was great. The activity thing didn't go as well as hoped though. I switched out the toys. I gave her Legos for 30 minutes while she was waiting her turn ( she doesn't really like building toys because she lacks imagination but they make you think and she needs that) then some school and then coloring ( she loves to color) then more school and then some magnet toys. She got up twice to interupt for no reason. She kept putting her toy up and wandering around instead of staying at her activity. I redirected and sent her back. I really feel 30 minutes is not too long for her to stay at one thing. I would give her a free for all in the playroom but when I need her occupied it's naptime for the 3 littlest and she is very loud and strows toys everywhere if I am not in the room and I am helping others and cannot be in the playroom at this time. So my options are to alternate talking toys ( leapster, turbo twist) problem with these being that she doesn't really try to answer correctly she just likes to listen to them talk. I really don't like electronic toys at all myself but have them from gifting MIL. They are not free so they are considered special.

Also I think I may have discovered something recently. My son displayed institutional autism for the first 3 years. He stared into space when stressed or he just didn't want to do something and he wouldn't respond to you at all. It was an orphanage coping mechanism for him. By God's grace he gave this up and has not done it once since his 7th birthday. The therapist was completely floored that he was able to do this without formal therapy that I had refused. I just engaged him and prayed alot over it. Anyhow I think mayeb that my daugtehr has been doing this all along and I didn't recognize it because her eyes move when she does it. It seems she is doing what he did and thinking of nothing but it looks like she is just staring around. I am not sure how to deal with this as my son was smaller and I rocked him and talked to him. Sometimes actually I blew in his face and he would shudder and snap out of it. I am not sure whether to do the same thing or something different. I do know that not thinking about her choices is the majority of her problem. She can tell you what the consequence is for her action but she always has trouble telling what the right thing to do would have been. When I ask her waht she is thinking about when she's just staring she always says nothing. I ask what she is looking at. She says she can't remember. I am reluctant to try the rocking as she eats up attention but not in a good way. If she catches on that zoning out gets extra attention I may be in for it. She is one of those kids that will even take negative attention if that's the only thing she can get and will repeat behaviours just to produce the same reaction. It is a constant battle for me to remain calm and not react adversly to new behaviours so she won't be tempted to act this way.

Anyhow so anyone have an opinion on the toy rotation or the attention thing. I am going to try Doorpost Family Circles too, to try to get in extra time with her that doesn't depend on her behaviour. That's all the idea I have so far.

Oh one more thing. I loved the Ellen and Richard story. I discuss responsible alot with all my kids. I always say responsible is obeying when no one is looking. Anyhow she actually caught on that Ellen was responsible and realized how her brother could have been in danger or the family could have gone hungry if not for Ellen having this character trait. That was so priceless. She still knows her 2 bible verses with no prompting from me either. this is a first for her. I will say it again. I love HOD. I heard from someother post a little each day goes such a long way, they were so right.

[my3sons]

Well, I am so glad that your dd listened better, and I think each day will bring her closer to the goals you have for her! You are a very loving mother, and she will continue to see more and more each day that you are not going anywhere - that your love for her is forever. I think the brisk pace of not lingering on lessons will continue to help. Maybe 30 minutes is too long for an activity right now for her. I'd meet her where she's at right now and alternate 20 minute teaching times with 20 minutes playing times. If touch seems to help her (as rocking helped your ds), you could put your arms around her and start the day swaying and singing the Bible music song (I do this with my ds whose love language is touch, and he loves that time together). Then you could do the Bible Study with her, and then send her to play something active, maybe in the playroom. If she likes to throw toys - maybe she could throw balls in a hoop or laundry basket? Or beanbags in buckets? Ring toss? If she had her loud time at this point, you wouldn't have to worry about waking baby probably, right? I'd set the timer for 20 minutes and let her see it counting down - I'd give her her own timer to watch - they have these even at the dollar store. Then she can visually see the time she's away from you counting down - when it rings - no matter what, I'd do another 20 minutes with her. Perhaps the poetry and then the Language arts box (or about 20 minutes worth). Then, send her away again with the timer set for 20 minutes. Perhaps a color by number or letter book or a special coloring book just for this time, or maybe special colored pencils, etc. would be good since she enjoys coloring (that is so wonderful btw - I had a ds who did NOT like to color for a very long time ). Then, no matter what, when the timer dings, I'd stop whatever you are doing and work with her again. You could then maybe do the Reading about History box and then the bottom left box of the left side of the plans (which will be Science, or Art, or Geography or History activity). Then, send her away for another 20 minutes setting the timer again - maybe she could do an exercise video at this point. We invested in 4 of these and I was soooooo glad for my active son. Collage video has a bunch of great kid's exercise videos. But, no matter what - even if it's in the middle of the video - when the timer rings after 20 minutes, stop what you are doing and meet with her again. Maybe do the Phonics/Reading Choices box and then the Storytime box - being sure to really cuddle up with her at this time - even holding her on your lap. (Something my ds who loves touch adores - I could read to him from the yellow pages, I think, and he'd love it just because he was being held. ). Then, another 20 minutes of the timer, maybe for her to use her electronic toys. Then, finally, finish with the Math Exploration box. Then, special toys, a short video, playtime with siblings, outdoor "recess", book on tape, or whatever "tricks" you have left - alternating some time with you in there off and on if possible. I think if you did this for 4 weeks, you could then increase the independent times up to 25 minutes, then up to 30 minutes - which would probably be the maximum. My thinking here is that she would know for sure that she gets you to herself every 20 minutes. Also, I wouldn't worry about having her build with legos if that's not her thing - just do what works right now until you can get her into a consistent routine that proves to her you have planned to be with her every 20 minutes. I realize that this may seem like you are giving her too much attention at first - but, I think you are having to do so anyway. If she could see you are routinely giving her time alone in a planned way, then after a month of doing that consistently I think you will reap big rewards. I have prayed for you today again and will continue to lift you up in prayer. After reading your last few posts, I'd say getting her on a consistent schedule something like the one I've suggested is of the utmost importance right now - more important than the other dc at this point. When she is at peace, so will the rest of the dc and you be at peace. I pray that peace for you, and I lift you and your dd up in prayer - God is big enough to solve this - let's keep praying !

In Christ,
Julie

[abtowell]

I thought it best to ask a new question here with all the info than to start a new thread. First I want to say that HOD is still so much better than anything I have tried for my daughter before but with her quirks ( need a nicer word here) I find myself feeling lost some days. Of course I was a whole lot more lost elsewhere. Anyhow for example. The activity was the build a playdoh dike in a bowl and save a playdoh person on one side. Awesome idea for an activity, right? Ok, yes if you mean any of my other kids. I showed her books, read all the stories, discussed, gave hints, anything I could think of. At first she declared she didn't know what I was talking about, so I made the man and showed her we needed to keep water off of him as I was going to pour some in the bowl when she was done. Then she made lots of little balls and stuck them all to the side of the bowl. It looked like pebbles all over the place. Then I showed some pictures and explained again about what a dike is for. She could repeat to me what I said and point at the right pictures. I even read her an extra book that my TOG child was reading. Then I told her that she needed to use the whole ball of clay as one piece ( I gave her special clay we had because it is easier than playdoh to work with) as a hint. I told her to mold it. 10 minutes or so went by of her making that into a ball outside of the bowl. I discussed that the clay must be in the bowl to stop the water. Anyhow this whole rendiditon went on for 30 mintues the first day, I gave up and went to something else and then again the next day until I finally gave up and made it myself and showed her what to do. I am still never sure if she gets it or not. What am I doing wrong? I can't teach this poor kid anything that I don't show her what to do. I want her to think on her own and have her own ideas but she doesn't have any. She can only mimic what she sees. I have never once in 5 years seen her learn something as a concept and apply it to something else as a way to try it out. Like learning that a stool makes you taller so the child pushes it up to the cabinet to reach something. That sort of thing just doesn't occur to her.

Does anyone else have this problem? What should I do? Do I try for 10 minutes and then just show everytime? She is not an ambitious child. I am afraid if I do that she will never branch out and try even is she does eperience the light bulb going off. I am not frustrated so much that she doesn't learn fast. That is fine with me. I am OK teaching the 1st grade twice. She is listening better to the stories. I have to explain alot but she seems interested and it is much less overwhelming than all the other things I have tried for her. Her favorite thing is the CD with the bible verses, but I must say she doesn't think about the words. She was singing the honor your father and mother one while jumping on the bed while I was in the shower after being told not to( nor never being allowed to or seeing anyone in my house do this) twice. I guess my concern is that I am teaching a Mynah Bird. I feel like she can repeat whtever I say but there is nothing going on behind the mimic. I would feel better if I knew someone who had an older child that did this when they were younger. My son did until around age 6 and then went on. He is 9.5 now and comes up with all sorts of things now. She will be 8 in May and I feel like we are still in preschool comprehension wise. This is hard for me. Do I go on teaching her to copy with no understanding? or do I circle the same level until I get understanding?

We are moving back to the states, Praise the Lord this summer. So I will have the option to have her reevaluated by a developmental pediatrician but honestly that wasn't a huge help for my son. I got 2 misdiagnosis before I found what was wrong with him in the million books I read and found a doctor who knew about it. I chose a different path than the doctor for his therapy and it has worked beautifully. I have had him 7 years, and I could see the fruit after 3. I am trying hard not to be discouraged after 5 with her. I know 8 isn't very old but I feel like I am running out of time since I still don't know how to help her understand things instead of just copy. I am praying it will go differently this time. I have a bit of guilt trip since I haven't researched her issues as much as I did his. But, when I had him I only had 2 bio children who were 4 and 2 and there was no big hurry to do much but play. Now there are 7 kids and I didn't realize until kindergarten that all she was doing was copying. I thought she didn't have any learning issues, now it's been 3 years since kindergarten and the furthest we have gotten is carrying ones and making a 3 to 5 word sentence. Most of which are, There is cheese and bread, written under a picture of cheese and bread.

I am so sorry for getting on a soapbox, I guess this is the only place to get on one since my husband is just as lost as I am and none of the homeschooling moms I know have any experience with this type of issue. I don't want to complain, I want guidance and reassurance and there feels like there is none.

On a brighter note I think I have figured out a way to tie all of my older kids into Bigger. We are going to be getting dairy goats when we get back to the states and I need something lighter for my 6th grader the first year she attempts this. So I decided just to accept that the extension pack would be okay. I am praying for a writing coop for her to fill the gaps. I do have a question though, is there reading questions for the extension packs or just for the core books? I know my eldest will read the extra books but I am worried my boys will skimp on stuff with no accountability. She has been sorely neglected teaching wise this year IMO, not hers, but with only reading the books she passed all the evaluations for her curriculum with A's. So I figure if she can learn what she needs in history by just reading and the books suggested in the extension pack are used for lots of other curriculums what difference does it make if I put her in this or something else. That was a very freeing thought.

Oh one more thing, has anyone here tried Math on the level for a struggling learner? Also a friend who is a former school teacher suggested that I teach her 3 days a week year round due to her memory retention issues instead of just during the school year. Anyone have an opinion that has tried it? My other kids frowned when I mentioned this. They like 3 months off. If I skip 4 days with her I have to reteach a concept. Her brother forgets some stuff over the 3 months but I can usually reteach it in a few weeks, which I think is normal. With her it's like she's never seen it before. I have even resorted to studying herbs that might help her memory. How can you be concerned and helpful without worrying about tomorrow? Don't answer that I already know, it was rhetorical?