Several ?'s about Grammar and Placement

[astein2005]

Hello!
I have 4 kiddos ages 14-5. I am really leaning towards using HOD with all of them for the upcoming school year. This will be our first time using HOD. I printed out the Placement Chart this afternoon and sat down this evening and figured out where my 3 oldest kids would fit. My oldest two (14 & 12) had circles all over the place...mainly when it came to grammar and writing. How do I know if they are able to use DITHOR if I've never used it or have seen it? So those blocks are hard to decipher where exactly they would fit. Neither has had any formal literature study aside from being given a stack of books to read and when they finish one, we sit and talk about it. That's been the extent of their literature study. My oldest can write in cursive, but my 12 year old son cannot. He's starting to learn, but has not mastered it yet. My biggest concern is, they both are strong readers and can comprehend and discuss what they are reading really well. It's just their handwriting and grammar skills that are lacking. So, I am just curious if I am able to purchase a guide based more off of where they score in the reading, history, and science columns, and then tailor the handwriting and grammar to fit where they are? I may even use an entirely different grammar than Rod and Staff, so this is also another thing I need to consider as well, I guess. I was looking at some of the books in the guide that my daughter placed due to her grammar/handwriting and alot of the books she has read already...a few years ago. So I feel like, comprehension wise, I would be holding her back just because her handwriting isn't up to par and her grammar skills are lacking a bit. Does this make sense? I would appreciate all the help/advice/guidance you all could provide.

My 8 year old daughter, who will be 9 by the time we officially start our new school year, placed where I thought she would in Bigger, however, she is definitely more advanced when it comes to reading/comprehension/and spelling. She's the opposite of my older two when it comes to the language arts. Those are her strong subjects, math is where she needs a little more time and practice. However, we have been using Masterbooks for her math this year and I am seeing such an improvement that I have no plans on changing that going forward. So, I am wondering if I should start her in preparing, not letting math hold her back, instead of Bigger. Or, no since she is just starting to learn cursive?

And then...on top of it all...there is the topic of credits for my oldest and how I figure all that out! Sheesh! I am starting to feel the stress of it all and I would truly appreciate, again, all the guidance you all can throw my way!

This is a lot harder than I thought it would be! LOL! Man how I wish I would have started with HOD from the beginning!

Thank you all so very much!!

EDIT TO ADD: I forgot to mention what grades/guides my oldest are. For my 14 year old DD, she will be going into 9th grade and placed in Resurrection to Reformation. My 11(almost 12) year old son will be going into 7th grade and placed in Preparing and RtR. (Preparing due to grammar and writing, RtR due to reading independently and age)

[Rice]

To speak to your 8/9yo first, do you consider her going into 3rd or 4th? If 4th, AND she's ready to start reading and working independently for 2 subjects (science and Independent History Study) and to start learning to write written narrations (3-5 sentences once per unit), then you are probably right to think Preparing. Preparing makes an excellent 4th grade.

As for the older 2, you did not say which grade you consider them to be, nor which guides you are considering. Grammar can be considered separate from the rest (you don't HAVE to have them in the suggested level; there are placement tests available for R&S online, or you can choose a separate grammar). However, writing ability (the ability to put their thoughts together and get them on paper - either by hand writing or typing) IS very important. How much can they write about a single reading? Do they need help to get their ideas on paper? Have they done a formal writing program (write, edit, hand in final draft) before?

So, knowing those dynamics about "writing", would you care to share which guides you are undecided between so we can help discuss in more detail (and to give Carrie and Juline/my3sons more background for when they have time to come on and make suggestions)?

[daybreaking]

Doing a different level of grammar (or even a separate grammar program altogether) would not be a problem, as the plans for R&S English are not connected with the history, science, math, etc. My son has been several years ahead of the guides in English, and it's not been an issue for us. The only time you might run into difficulty is if you choose a grammar program that is substantially longer than R&S or that is much more involved, as that could make your day run quite long or it could mean there is repetition from what the program covers and what is in the guides. For example, the guides encompass writing via copywork, narrations, notebooking, etc., so if a different grammar program does the same, it could be too much.

Based on our experience, I would say writing is an important decision. Our son is extremely bright and was able to do comprehensive oral narrations from a very young age, but the writing in the guides was definitely a challenge for him. Even though he fully understood all of the reading material, he had a very hard time keeping up with the notebooking assignments. Once we got the right fit, our days were much more enjoyable. Although you'll want your children challenged, having them frustrated day in and day out will not lead to a pleasant homeschool experience. One option is to have them place in a guide that fits their writing and then have them read the extension books along with the regular guide. That is something that worked well for us and kept my son challenged intellectually, without being overloaded with the writing.

Another option would be to do a higher guide, but go at half-speed until your child(ren) grow into the writing in the guides. Many moms have found good success going that route and then are able to move to full-speed down the road.

Just my two cents ... which may or may not work in your situation.

P.S. As far as DITHOR, you could use higher-level books with a lower guide, if that fits your children better. You can see samples of the DITHOR teacher's guide and workbooks on the HOD website, as well as their suggestion of book choices, if that would be helpful.

[astein2005]

To speak to your 8/9yo first, do you consider her going into 3rd or 4th? If 4th, AND she's ready to start reading and working independently for 2 subjects (science and Independent History Study) and to start learning to write written narrations (3-5 sentences once per unit), then you are probably right to think Preparing. Preparing makes an excellent 4th grade.

As for the older 2, you did not say which grade you consider them to be, nor which guides you are considering. Grammar can be considered separate from the rest (you don't HAVE to have them in the suggested level; there are placement tests available for R&S online, or you can choose a separate grammar). However, writing ability (the ability to put their thoughts together and get them on paper - either by hand writing or typing) IS very important. How much can they write about a single reading? Do they need help to get their ideas on paper? Have they done a formal writing program (write, edit, hand in final draft) before?

So, knowing those dynamics about "writing", would you care to share which guides you are undecided between so we can help discuss in more detail (and to give Carrie and Juline/my3sons more background for when they have time to come on and make suggestions)?

Thank you for your reply! I completely forgot to add that information about my oldest two, so I went and edited my post to reflect that. My 14 year old DD will be going into 9th grade and placed in Ressurection to Reformation mainly because, according to the placement chart, she never had formal literature study and her grammar and writing skills are lacking. I honestly do not know what a formal lit. study is since we've been pretty relaxed CM homeschoolers from the get go.

My 11 (almost 12) year old DS will be going into 7th and placed in both preparing and Resurrection to Reformation. Again, for the same reasons as my DD and because he isn't writing in cursive yet.

And for my 8/9 yo DD, she will be going into 4th grade and I definitely feel she could start to work a bit more independently in the areas you mentioned and feel pretty confident that Preparing would be a great fit for her!

[astein2005]

Based on our experience, I would say writing is an important decision. Our son is extremely bright and was able to do comprehensive oral narrations from a very young age, but the writing in the guides was definitely a challenge for him. Even though he fully understood all of the reading material, he had a very hard time keeping up with the notebooking assignments. Once we got the right fit, our days were much more enjoyable. Although you'll want your children challenged, having them frustrated day in and day out will not lead to a pleasant homeschool experience. One option is to have them place in a guide that fits their writing and then have them read the extension books along with the regular guide. That is something that worked well for us and kept my son challenged intellectually, without being overloaded with the writing.

Another option would be to do a higher guide, but go at half-speed until your child(ren) grow into the writing in the guides. Many moms have found good success going that route and then are able to move to full-speed down the road.

Just my two cents ... which may or may not work in your situation.

P.S. As far as DITHOR, you could use higher-level books with a lower guide, if that fits your children better. You can see samples of the DITHOR teacher's guide and workbooks on the HOD website, as well as their suggestion of book choices, if that would be helpful.

Thank you so much for your reply! Yes, I definitely do not want to cause frustration day in and day out and fight, with my 11 yo DS especially, everyday! He is my most challenging student as far as getting him motivated to sit and do what is expected/required of him each day! He is so very bright, but sitting down to do most any type of schooling is a struggle and a fight most days!

My husband said pretty much the same as you in regards to the guide and writing, but that would put my 11 yo son, whom I am saying is entering 7th grade according to age, in preparing and the extensions are for 5th - 6th graders. Would that be appropriate for him? He and my 14 yo DD both retain information from their readings very well, but you hit the nail on the head...I think having to write it out everyday would be a struggle! My DD has done more composition work this year as part of her Science curriculum, and has done quite well, but she hasn't had to do any type of notebooking, etc in any other subject, so I am not sure how she would do if it were intensified. Plus, she has also never been given any type of creative writing assignment. Their grammar has been very limited...such a HUGE disservice on my part! She is a fast learner and thrives with her school work...not giving me as much of a fight like her brother...but still, I don't want to overwhelm her and cause tears and frustration.

My DD placed in Resurrection to Reformation, but she is going into 9th grade and I need to start keeping track of credits. Could I do that if I choose to use RtR?
I don't know...maybe because of all the writing that is required in HOD, it may not be a good fit after all for my older two...starting with it this late in the game. My youngest two I think will thrive with it, since I am starting it with them at pretty much the beginning. (especially with my 5 year old since this will be the start of schooling with him! )

Again, thank you for your help and reply! Sorry for all my rambling!! LOL!

[StephanieU]

One thing to consider is if you can work on some of the weak areas in the next few months. Likely your oldest could work on writing and possibly place 1-2 guides higher. I know many families jump into Dithor at the 6/7/8 level with no previous literary analysis. So I wouldn't any away from Rev2Rev or MtMM simply because you have done literary analysis. Jumping to WG might be a stretch though without any formal literature study.

If your older two kids haven't done written narrations before, definely start working on that now. Then in a month or two, see where they are in the placement chart again.

[Rice]

I have used RTR for 9th. It's not a situation I would suggest unless absolutely necessary, so I would agree with Stephanie's suggestion to work on some writing skills over the next few months to hopefully place at least in RTR.

My son tried CTC at 12 but he could not handle the overall workload and the writing, so went down to Preparing (except for science). He was then in RTR with Extensions for 9th, with higher science, composition, and literature, and at-level math and the rest of LA (lower dictation, different grammar). RTR is not really set up for high school; Rev2Rev is much better.

Rev2Rev's Advanced science option is enough for a high school science credit (while MTMM's you may want to add to or swtich for another - we used science from other HOD guides). Rev2Rev and MTMM (with extensions) can be their high school "modern history" credits (and with WG and WH can round out their high school Social Studies credits).

I think that at this point you need HOD's input. They are so good at helping with not only "this year" placement help, but a long term vision of what high school could be like using HOD. If working on writing skills for the remainder of this year would be advised, they would know how you could go about that. (My suggestion would be to look at the download for the first units of RTR and Rev2Rev and have your DD do narrations, as directed in RTR, with the goal of being ready to do the minimum suggestions of Rev2Rev by next fall.)

All that said, if you haven't done a formal writing curriculum yet, I strongly encourage you to do RTR's IEW Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons. When I came from another CM curriculum to HOD, that program gave me the structure *I* needed to teach my children well. Rev2Rev's may be more enjoyable for a natural writer, someone who enjoys writing stories, but IEW's Medieval has the structure to get them on the right track for the report writing required in high school.

So much to think about, I know. Blessings as you process it all. I've been there, wondering how to place kids behind in LA; not wanting to short change them, but also noe wanting to overwhelm. It's so hard to know where to place them, but know that the "wrong" decision is not the end of the world. Except for the financial considerations, switching levels mid-year can work. Both of my oldest 2, for different reasons, could not handle the guide in which I placed them, so moved down a level each, 10 units into our school year. While that change was challenging, the relief, as they were able to do what was asked of them, was palpable. HOD has been such a blessing to our family, and I hope the same will be true for you.

Blessings,

[astein2005]

I have used RTR for 9th. It's not a situation I would suggest unless absolutely necessary, so I would agree with Stephanie's suggestion to work on some writing skills over the next few months to hopefully place at least in RTR.

My son tried CTC at 12 but he could not handle the overall workload and the writing, so went down to Preparing (except for science). He was then in RTR with Extensions for 9th, with higher science, composition, and literature, and at-level math and the rest of LA (lower dictation, different grammar). RTR is not really set up for high school; Rev2Rev is much better.

Rev2Rev's Advanced science option is enough for a high school science credit (while MTMM's you may want to add to or swtich for another - we used science from other HOD guides). Rev2Rev and MTMM (with extensions) can be their high school "modern history" credits (and with WG and WH can round out their high school Social Studies credits).

I think that at this point you need HOD's input. They are so good at helping with not only "this year" placement help, but a long term vision of what high school could be like using HOD. If working on writing skills for the remainder of this year would be advised, they would know how you could go about that. (My suggestion would be to look at the download for the first units of RTR and Rev2Rev and have your DD do narrations, as directed in RTR, with the goal of being ready to do the minimum suggestions of Rev2Rev by next fall.)

All that said, if you haven't done a formal writing curriculum yet, I strongly encourage you to do RTR's IEW Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons. When I came from another CM curriculum to HOD, that program gave me the structure *I* needed to teach my children well. Rev2Rev's may be more enjoyable for a natural writer, someone who enjoys writing stories, but IEW's Medieval has the structure to get them on the right track for the report writing required in high school.

So much to think about, I know. Blessings as you process it all. I've been there, wondering how to place kids behind in LA; not wanting to short change them, but also noe wanting to overwhelm. It's so hard to know where to place them, but know that the "wrong" decision is not the end of the world. Except for the financial considerations, switching levels mid-year can work. Both of my oldest 2, for different reasons, could not handle the guide in which I placed them, so moved down a level each, 10 units into our school year. While that change was challenging, the relief, as they were able to do what was asked of them, was palpable. HOD has been such a blessing to our family, and I hope the same will be true for you.

Blessings,

Thank you, again, for taking the time to help me out! I am thinking about maybe just combining my son with my younger daughter in Preparing. Looking over the books used, I think he would really do well with the extension pack for History, but the science would be a bit too juvenile for him as he LOVES science and that is really his area where he most thrives. So, I may look into an apologia science for him. That is what my oldest is using currently for science. My son and younger daughter are doing science together this year using The Good and the Beautiful. It's definitely not challenging enough for him, but he has been loving it and learning alot. At the beginning of the year, I definitely did not feel he was ready to be more independent with his science, but as the year has progressed, he is definitely ready! He does History on his own. It all comes back to writing! Man, how could I have messed this up pretty badly!?! So that is definitely where I am going to need the most guidance with him...to get him more on track so he is better prepared to start high school where he needs to be!

As for my daughter, I think you are right in the fact that if I work on her writing skills over the next few months, she would most likely be ready for Rev2Rev if not MtMM. However, alot of the History books listed in MtMM she's read already. Not sure what I would do there! I guess maybe if I get her writing improved, she could start with Rev2Rev then maybe skip MtMM (is that even a thing?) and start World Geography in 10th grade?

Again, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to help out a stranger! I hope and pray that one day I will be able to pay it forward on the HOD boards!

[Rice]

As for my daughter, I think you are right in the fact that if I work on her writing skills over the next few months, she would most likely be ready for Rev2Rev if not MtMM. However, alot of the History books listed in MtMM she's read already. Not sure what I would do there! I guess maybe if I get her writing improved, she could start with Rev2Rev then maybe skip MtMM (is that even a thing?) and start World Geography in 10th grade?

I would not suggest planning to skip a guide. Each one builds skills on the one before it. If she has read some of the books, she likely will not have studied them in the same way, and also don't discount the growth that has happened since she read them last - the way that they are used in HOD will bring out more ideally at a deeper level than when she read them before.

That said, I'd again direct you to HOD to comment on dealing with how many of them have been read, how recently, and how much of an impact that will make.

Blessings,