Is this a good plan? Beyond vs. Bigger

[Kristen]

I used HOD a long time ago with my two oldest and now am considering it for my two youngest (DD5 and DS8). I have the LHFHG program already so I will probably just start that with my DD5, but my question is for DS8 who is in 3rd grade this year. I've looked at the placement chart and he seems to place into Bigger for everything except maybe the writing. He reads well, has read a lot of the emerging readers (just randomly; we haven't gone through the list). We haven't done any formal grammar study, just MadLibs. We have a math already which we will continue. He really likes science and is ready for something more than what is in Beyond. It's just the act of printing that is hard for him. He has written his own stories and he doesn't mind that, but things like math and copying are tedious for him. If he does math orally and I write the answers he seems to like that. He tends to write mostly in capital letters. He has also started to complain that school is boring and was very interested when I read a "living book" to him. This made me remember the great experience I had with HOD years ago.
I'm thinking maybe to do Bigger but at half-speed? If I do Beyond I think most of it would be too easy for him. I'd also be doing two back-to-back programs. Would that be bad?
Any advice on which program?
Thanks,
Kristen
P.S. My signature is really old!

[mrsrandolph]

I would worry that bigger may be too much for him, writing wise.

[rumkimom]

My son (age 9, 3rd grade) is in Bigger and it is perfect for him. Some days they do more writing than others, but I do not find that it is too much (we are starting Unit 6). We do our grammar orally so that eliminates quite a bit of the daily writing. They do start cursive in this book, but you can substitute another handwriting book instead if he is not ready for it. My son also still prefers to write some letters as capitals sand we are working on that! The only writing my son did yesterday was his handwriting book and the timeline (2 names and dates). For today, the only handwriting is his handwriting book and the spelling words on index cards (most days we do them orally, but on day 1 he writes them on index cards). There seems to be only 1 thing a day (besides handwriting) that they have to write. On the day you do vocab, you can choose to have him write only 1 of the 3 words and then work your way up to the 3 by the end of the year.

[Gwenny]

I can relate to you with your guy that doesn't like to write. My 11 yo thinks it's the worst torture ever--well, he did, now it only ranks as maybe the 2nd worst torture. It is slowly getting better and better over time. I think it sounds like Bigger would be a good fit. His writing can catch up. You can go 1/2 speed for a little bit, but it might not need to be long. You can keep the writing a little bit slower without doing the guide 1/2 speed. Having him write a little bit each day and slowly adding more really makes a difference. Ways to keep the writing down, depending on the day, you could do most or all of the English orally--just have him write a sentence or two, or some words--for the note booking pages, have him write some of the verse, or break it up over the day into a couple of parts--write the experiment words for him and he just draws the pictures...only do one vocab word to start and slowly add more. He doesn't need to have done any grammar, just start with English 2.

[hs.mama07]

We just started it with my almost 8 year old son who also is not a fan of writing, and I haven't found it to be too much. Carrie does a good job spreading it throughout the week. I agree, it might be good to start half-speed for a few weeks or months, though. Also, my son has needed a lot of encouragement for the writing assignments. Like our first history assignment--drawing a labeling a map--I sat next to him the whole time, let him abbreviate a few words (like Is. for island)...made my own map so he could see that it doesn't have to be perfect (and to give him a model to look at) We also took a break half way through. He did fine with it and was very proud of the finished result! Copying the Bible verse I also let him do in parts...and you might use a notebook instead of an index card--it's hard to write that small for some kids.

As for cursive, we started that a few weeks before starting Bigger and he likes it so much better than manuscript! Says it's easier...so you might give it a try. But, if your son isn't ready, Carrie gives the option for poetry copywork instead to be done in manuscript.

We also do English orally (unless there's not much writing that day, in which case I have him do 1-2 sentences written)...and we do a lot of math orally too, as needed. My goal is to slowly work him toward more writing endurance as the year progresses.

All that being said, it is a lot more writing than Beyond (and we enjoyed Beyond a lot too). Beyond could be a nice transition for him--and it'd be easy to beef up the science with library books, nature walks, etc. Have you looked at the first week of Bigger--that might help you decide.

http://www.heartofdakota.com/pdf/BHFHG-first-week.pdf

Also, this is a post about the writing in Bigger, from Julie, which could also help.

Bible - Once per week copy the memory verse
History - Timeline entries once per week (name, dates, and small picture)
Once per week notebooking page that may be a map drawing, list of facts about a person or event, pictures to go with it...
1-3 Vocabulary cards per week (definition, sentence using word, and illustration on the back)
Science - Once per week notebooking page including Bible verse and a labeled drawing
Once per week experiment page (Parent writes question on it, child records a guess, draws the procedure, and writes a conclusion)
Dictation - Study and write short passage 3 times a week (2 sentences)
DITHOR - 2 (?) student pages per week (The teacher guide actually reccommends writing these for your child if writing is an issue starting out.)
Cheerful Cursive - if you're opting to do that (The lessons are very short! I have my child write the words once, even though it says twice on some of the pages, as long as it's GOOD writing.)
R&S2 - Usually about 5 sentences a day (on a white board)
Poetry - OPTIONAL to copy from the poem of the week. We started out without it, and have added in copying 2 lines 4 days a week.

These are spread throughout the week in the plans so that there's not too much on any one day. Cursive and R&S are daily, but the "big" ones are split up.
Day 2 - Science notebooking
Day 3 - vocabulary and science experiment page
Day 4 - Bible verse
Day 5 - History timeline entry and notebooking

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16183#p113659

[christina32344]

My 9 year old has reached Unit 16 of Bigger. She has struggled with writing in the past, however Bigger has just enough writing to improve her skills without overwhelming her. I would definitely suggest Bigger.

[Kristen]

Thanks so much for all the great and thoughtful replies! They are very helpful. As I've been thinking more about it and looking at the weekly samples I'm leaning toward Beyond. He is actually a young 8, having just turned in August. There isn't a whole lot of writing in Bigger but I think he would do well with the gentle introductions in Beyond. Looking at the samples, one day a week of oral grammar in Beyond sounds perfect! As hs.mama07 said, I could beef up the science if necessary. He can also listen in with big brother who will be doing a multi-age science. He is a verbal kid and is very articulate so I tend to want to push him a little, but I think building a good skill foundation will serve him well as we move forward. So my next question...will it be hard to do back-to-back guides? LHFHG and Beyond? How about as the years go on? I know things may (and probably will) change as the years go by, but DD5 and DS8 are almost 3 years apart. I can't see them always in back-to-back guides. I'm sure my DD5 will take more time. She isn't even reading yet.

[hs.mama07]

I haven't done back to back guides, so can't speak about that, I'm sure others I will chime in (if not, try starting a new post with that specific question).

If you don't want to do back to back guides, you could consider spreading LHFHG over two years. You would do kinder math. And language arts (handwriting, fine motor skills, and phonics) full speed this year and 1st grade la and math full speed when she is 6. You would do the other subjects half speed...every other day. So history, sci, story time, etc would take two years. This would spread your kids out a bit.

Or, you could do little hands to heaven with your five year old for kinder this year (adding in kinder la and math) and then use LHFHG for her 1st grade. (We"re doing lhth for kinder with my ds5 right now).

Just a couple of ideas.

[rodandmegs]

My seven year old is using Bigger, and I do not think it is too much at all. She also doesn't like to write, but hasn't complained at all. She is using Cheerful Cursive, also, and it takes about five minutes a day.

[Nealewill]

It's just the act of printing that is hard for him. He has written his own stories and he doesn't mind that, but things like math and copying are tedious for him. If he does math orally and I write the answers he seems to like that.

I find it interesting that you said he can write but he doesn't like it. If it were me, I would stop writing his math down for him. I think that even if you go with Beyond, he is going to hate the writing. The writing in Bigger starts out small and gets to be more and more as you go through the guide. You can definitely do R&S orally and you can wait to do cheerful cursive next year. But I am curious, how long are the stories he writes and how long does it take him to write them?

I do think you would love Beyond with his age but I think you would love Bigger as well. Which ever you pick, even when he tells you he hates writing something, I would encourage you follow the guide. Don't change it. If he can write, I would have him do it. Even though he doesn't like it, I would still encourage him to do it. It may take a lot longer. That is okay! Let it take longer. That is what he needs to build up his hand muscles. My son struggled significantly with fine motor skills. Me making him (at times) or letting him (when it took forever) do everything on his own helped tremendously. Were there days I jumped in and wrote his math? Yes there were. But it was only on days where he had already done half of it alone and those days had a ton of problems. I do feel like the progression of writing in Beyond and Bigger definitely helped strengthen his hands. If your son is struggling, and you go with Beyond, make sure he does the copy work everyday like the guide says. To be honestly, my son hated doing copywork too. But I made him did it and now he is doing Preparing and the writing has not been a problem at all. I am so encouraged because some days there is quite a bit to copy! But he does it and he does it well. He doesn't even complain now. I think it is because he is used to writing quite a bit. And I owe that to the levels of HOD.

[Kristen]

Thanks Daneale for your thoughts. I should clarify, I don't write his math for him but I have in the past a few times just to see if it made a difference. I was trying to see what was making him so resistant, the math or the writing. Does that make sense?
He has written a comic of sorts. He would take a spiral notebook and write a story about "Magnet Man." One or two short sentences on a page and some stick figures. The writing was hard to read with mostly capitals and misspellings. I've been doing a spelling program with him that we started this school year and he doesn't mind that, he had actually said it was his favorite subject. I think because it's like a game to see if he gets it right? But his printing was all capitals so I also got a handwriting book that we started working on. That he balks at as well. But I have him do short lessons. Hmmmm.....maybe he only likes to write if he feels there is purpose in it (to him).
I have to laugh now that I keep thinking about all these things....I think he is just a young boy who would rather do LEGOs than write. His fine motor skills have to catch up. But I think what you're saying is that the things in Bigger would help him to do that. He does like reading and when I read to him.
Anyway, I really appreciate all the feedback and I think I'll keep praying about which would be a better fit. I've certainly erred on the side of holding my two older boys back in the past. I have a hard time knowing what they are capable of. You think I'd be better at it, having homeschooled for 10 years.
Thanks!
Kristen

[Nealewill]

One last question - does he read on his own much? How would you say his reading abilities are? I think you said he reads fine. Does he like to read? My son's biggest challenge in school has been language arts. He struggles because he has auditory processing disorder. Every year gets better and better. He has also been to language therapy and occupational therapy. Both of those things helps tons for his improvement in these areas. But the one reason I ask about reading skills is because even though the kids don't read science or history to themselves in Bigger or Beyond, they start this in Preparing. If you think your son will be fine with reading in Preparing sooner rather than later, I might consider Bigger. But if you think your son isn't going to be ready to move up to the reading required, then I would go with Beyond.

But honestly, from what you have shared in your most recent post, I think doing Beyond might be more enjoyable for him. It is a lot less writing and drawing than Bigger. There are some more complicated assignments in Bigger and lots of drawing each week. If he hates to write and copy stuff, he may get frustrated with all of the extra writing and drawing for the science notebooking and history notebooking. Beyond is a lot more gentle in that sense.

To be honest, I have recently gone round and round about whether or not I should have split up my son and youngest dd. They are so similar in abilities. My son does well with the volume he is doing now but it would be nicer on me to only do two levels. I work so much lately that I struggle to get it all done. It isn't HOD, it is me. But I have also been praying about how to cut back on working so much. Right now I just can't. And I should be thankful that I can work from home. I love what I do. But I am just stressed out right now and it will last for 2 more weeks. Then I am done with the crazy But I share all this to say that my son would have been fine being on the high end of a guide. Even without doing the extensions, he would be placed well. And he isn't struggling now at all. It is me that is struggling. Basically, my work schedule recently got insanely busy. I am teaching two accounting courses (I am an adjunct accounting professor and teach part time but usually have one class) and at my regular job (I am the accountant for a youth ministry organization) I am in the middle of a large grant that needs lots of reporting, I am working on a financial auditing review for another grant, I have some special invoicing items I need to prepare that aren't typical and we are starting to work on our annual budget for next year. I am dying on time!!!!! So many things in that last sentence are atypical and even more so that they all happened all at once! God must have a sense of humor or he is trying to teach me something. I don't know what it is though but I am still listening. For me, HOD already saves me oodles of time because my day is planned and my kids can work on some of their stuff alone. My youngest is very advanced and does most of her guide alone. And ironically, we have still be getting one weeks worth of plans done in one week. Don't ask me how! It is only by God's grace....seriously! We get it done and get it done well. Everyone has had a good attitude and no crying even (except me - I put myself to bed early last night because I was exhausted)! But I also think it might be nice to only teach 2 levels instead of 3. I am not quite sure what I plan to do next year if I do decide to go the route of having my son and youngest combine. It is still a possibility because language is hard for him. He is doing really well though so far this year. It started out a little rocky though but he has pulled it together. I find that the narrations are currently his largest challenge. He is finally getting better at writing the answers to science questions though and is thriving with the creative writing. I know I could always go half speed with him and have thought about that for next year. But I have also thought about having him repeat everything except for math, grammar and science and then just having him do the history and poetry over again if his LA is still a bit behind and then he can be combine with his sister. I share all this to say that I think him (my son) doing each guide on the highest age is still success! HOD is a great program! Kids learn a ton. Having your son on the highest end of the age range doesn't mean you are holding him back. He is gaining the skills he needs to move forward at a successful pace. I wouldn't worry that if you place him on the high end of the range, some of the demands might frustrate him on higher levels and you will then not love HOD. That is one nice thing with HOD, each guide builds on itself. But initial placement is key. For my oldest, I don't think I used the placement chart well. I should have probably placed her in Bigger when we first started. Don't get me wrong, she has done well and she rose to the occasion. But having her in the middle of the age range might have been better. Do I regret it? Not now. But we had some challenges when we first started. I think I had some unrealistic expectations and she also spent a lot of time staring out the window LOL . Those two things alone make for a rough year. But now she is doing really well and placed very well. So I guess I share that to say that even if you decide you want to challenge him, that is okay too Either way, I would just make sure to go at his pace. If you do Bigger and need to go slower, that is fine. Just go at his pace. And try to go for doing everything exactly as is.

But all in all, I think it sounds to me like he places in Beyond. Beyond will help with the writing and that is what increases level to level and is a very important skill. Praying though that God leads you to level you have peace with.

[Hope]

Hi Kristen,

You are getting so much great help that I couldn't give. I have learned more about HOD reading your thread!

I have hesitated to chime in since we are new to HOD, but we are also in our seventh year of home schooling. Since it seems your placement decision is talking some about writing and boys I thought I would chime in.

I have two at the oldest end of the grade, so at just turned 8 they were in 2nd grade instead of 3rd. The writing challenges with my boys have made me glad for that extra time. In fact, the reason my oldest is in CTC with extensions is I knew he would do better slightly lower for writing. His reading level, science knowledge, Biblical knowledge, and test scores have for many years very far exceeded grade level. Writing, spelling, and language arts have grown much more slowly for both of my boys. They can learn it though, it just takes time. The writing work load in CTC is plenty coming from MFW & eclectic home schooling, and for the sole reason of writing I am glad I didn't put him any higher. Even though I will say since he turned 11 that his writing really seems to have come together and become something that is enjoyable. Dictation at 10 also made a world of difference both in writing and spelling. And our years of copy work in 1st - 3rd grade definitely has helped develop his writing by laying a foundation.

I can't help with placement since I haven't completed those guides. I will say though I did MFW ADV twice. Once with an 8 year old and once with a 9 / 7 last year. Both times I used the Pioneers and Patriots book that Carrie uses in Beyond. I also used some of the literature that Carrie put into Beyond (I enjoyed researching all of HOD when I looked through it last month before I switched to it ) Both times my kids, at those ages, loved the books. They really did. I think the Pioneers and Patriots book is lovely for age 8.

I think HOD will really help with your sons writing. Even in the first month I can see it helping all 3 of my children in the areas of work load and writing, just by the way she approaches language arts and planning the guides.

If he is writing all capitol letters I wouldn't start too high. Copy work and a book like Italic B to teach him the lower case letters would help him a lot. Maybe he could do some handwriting practice with his younger sibling.

Prayers for your decision.

[my3sons]

Hi Kristen! Both of these guides are amazing - it just comes down to which you think would be a better fit overall and what your goals are for this year. As far as writing goes, I thought this excerpt from a post Carrie did may help...

...As far as choosing between "Beyond.." and "Bigger..." goes, the amount of writing varies quite a bit between Beyond and Bigger. Bigger requires more writing in the areas of a once a week history notebooking assignment, a once a week science experiment sheet and a once a week science notebooking entry, along with once a week copywork of a Bible verse, 1-3 vocabulary cards each week, cursive handwriting practice daily, and daily grammar instruction with written practice. It also provides a choice of spelling or dictation passages. If your little one sounds like that would be fine for her, she belongs in Bigger. If not, then Beyond would be best.

Beyond has much less writing doing copywork daily from the poetry, using a gentle once a week introduction to grammar, and writing daily for very short spelling lessons.

As far as teaching back to back guides, I'd worry less about that myself. Happenings in life have a way of spreading out something, and more than likely they won't always exactly be on the pace of back to back guides. I used to teach 3rd grade in ps and for multiple years I taught the same thing in a row. I sometimes would have liked variety for me, but for the kiddos, it was always new each year. That is the way it will be for your kiddos. I haven't taught back to back guides, but I have taught the guides of LHTH through BHFHG 3 times through the years. I'm enjoying BHFHG the most I have this year with my last. I guess I'm just looking ahead to knowing each guide I teach to him is my last time teaching it - sad, really, but an accomplishment to be celebrated too.

As far as ds's handwriting, it helped out boys to switch to Ticonderoga pencils rather than clicky pencils - they are sturdier. It also helped, when they were younger, to slide a pencil grip on the pencil to encourage them to hold the pencil properly. Finally, it helped to explain to each of them that by writing more and more each day they'd be building muscles in their hands to write better. I told them a weightlifter doesn't start off lifting heavy weights, they start small and build muscle to work up to the bigger weights. That is the way it is with fine motor skills too. So, I told my ds starting Beyond that he'd copy 1 line of the poem each day at first, but then he'd soon be copying 2 lines a day, and 3 lines a day, so that by the last 1/3 of the year or so, he was able to copy the whole poem in a week. I told him this would prepare him for BHFHG. Likewise, I told him at the start of BHFHG that he would be doing 1 vocabulary card at the start, but the second third of the guide he'd be doing 2 cards, and by the last third he'd be doing 3 cards - to get ready for PHFHG. Anyway, the end goal helps encourage the steps to get there. If you think he is capable of doing BHFHG with a few months of working on growing those hand 'muscles,' I'd do it. Otherwise, I'd do Beyond. Hope something here helps along with all of the fantastic advice you have received already!

In Christ,
Julie

[Kristen]

Well, the more I think about it and see all the writing that is actually involved each week (Thanks Julie ) I think I'm going to start him with Beyond. Bigger contains a lot of writing for him, considering what he is doing now as well as his having just turned 8. I know that if I started Bigger and it was too much, we would start skipping things and that would not help him at all. I know how important it is to get the right placement and when you do, it's just smooth sailing. I think Beyond woould give him just enough to build those writing muscles and feel good about it.
I also forgot to mention that sometimes (I think when he is overwhelmed or something is tough for him) he starts talking in this baby voice. Another indication that he is young and I shouldn't push too much. I forget because he is so articulate and always tries to keep up with his older brothers.
I think he's going to enjoy Beyond and it's always easier to add more (reading, drawing, science, whatever) than take away. We actually have a drawing book that I'd like to continue.
Anyway, thanks so much everyone!!
Kristen