place value, adding with carrying, singapore 1B

[queenireneof3]

Hello again...

I'm here with math questions again. Seems this is the hardest area for us. We are on Unit 30 day 2 of the math plans in Beyond. (singapore 1b). The goal is to add numbers from 0-100. They've also introduced questions with carrying (i.e 82+9).

From the beginning, my son (now 8yo) has not been able to truly grasp place value. Since coming to adding with carrying, we have hit that wall again. I decided to spend yesterday and today showing him each problem in the textbook, and workbook with the MUS blocks (base 10 rods) with him simply watching me. I wrote every step out on the whiteboard for him to follow. Today he copied me on his whiteboard. He taps out and loses focus after about 4-5 problems.

It doesn't seem to me that the lightbulb has gone on in this area yet. We've hit major bumps before and by slowing down and redoing the hands on activites he seems to catch on eventually. My plan tomorrow is to go back to the +1, -1, +10, -10 activities and redo those so he can better grasp adding tens.

My question is, how slow do we go? I hate to progress to subtraction when he can't even comprehend the addition. But you Singapore pros might have a different perspective than me. I ordered the 2a/2b books already and it looks like we will be moving on to numbers within the 100s and I know he hasn't figured out the 10s yet. Any advice?

Thank you!
sara

[MomtoJGJE]

Have you done all the hands on stuff in the guide? Those things really helped it click with my kids. That and just moving on. SM is very much a CM based idea.... you do something for a while, then move on to let their brain digest it.

Also, instead of you doing it and him watching, have him do it. So say the problem is 15+17. You would let him count out 15 and 17 whatever manipulatives you are using (a lot of times money really helps, dimes and pennies) have him put 10 of them (or a dime) in the tens spot on a piece of paper (with two columns labeled tens and ones) and then 5 others (or 5 pennies) in the ones spot. Then directly under that he would put 10 and 7. Then he would add the ones column and move 10 of them over to the tens column. Write down the ones that are left, and then count the tens column and write that down. I'm sure you know to do all those steps, but it really helps me sometimes to see it written.

Anyway, the big key is to let him do it. And then move on. Just be sure to do the hands on stuff from HOD and let him use the manipulatives when he's doing the actual workbook math as well.

[StephanieU]

we don't use Singapore, so I have a question for you. Is he struggling to understand that 9+2=10+1=11 or is he struggling with the fact that you are have "carry?" For my daughter, doing the problems with Base 10 herself really helped. I made a little mat for her, and it had a column for ones, tens, and hundreds. She would pull out our pieces, and then regroup. Then I would be the one that would write it how we do on paper.
Now, subtraction is different, so I don't know if I would stop moving forward. But, I would continue to work on addition. Even though they are related, being able to do addition with carrying isn't necessary for doing subtraction with regrouping. You can understand one and not the other it turns out (and do it fairly easily).

[queenireneof3]

Thank you, Lora Beth, and Stephanie!

Lora Beth, to answer one of your questions, I usually have him do all the work. I decided yesterday to do it myself as a change of pace and hopefully, that seeing the addition problems solved several times by me would help his brain understand. I realized that I don't do enough teaching, where he is watching how to do the problem and so then he gets frustrated quickly when I am asking him to work through the problem and he doesn't understand how to do it. We've always stuck to the hands on guides in Beyond. Perhaps we don't practice the activity long enough before moving to the textbook? We usually do 3-4 repeats of the hands on activity before moving to the textbook. I am trying to keep him from losing focus, so try to keep it short and moving. Maybe 3-4 practices of the hands on activities are not enough?

I think we will try dimes and pennies tomorrow since they are more easily regrouped into a ten than the base 10 rods. i will try your suggestions, stephanie with the mat and see how it goes. Originally we started with MUS and he could hardly get through the first chapter, all about place value to the 100s. The whole mat I made him for "decimal street" did not help either. I hope the pennies and dimes and mat and going back over the hands on activities will help. We'll probably try 1 or 2 more days reviewing this before moving on.

Thanks for the encouragement about subtraction being different and therefore, not to be avoided if he hasn't figured out addition.

[queenireneof3]

also Stephanie, I forgot to mention that he does not realize he is "carrying" yet. Yes, I am trying to help him see 9+2=10+1 and 54+7=50+4+7

[MomtoJGJE]

My kids get REALLY confused when I try to explain that 9+2 is the same as 10+1. And they are all really good in math. I would suggest telling him you are going to start over with this whole thing (carrying) and then explain it to him as carrying. "Ok, when you add your ones together and get 10 or more, then you have to carry the 10 over to the next column)" OOHH!!! Maybe do something big he has to carry around! Like instead of money or blocks, have it be something bigger... stuffed animals or pillows or something. Make the tens/ones chart on the floor in tape. And if he gets more than 10 have him literally carry the 10 over to the tens column (maybe stuff them all in a garbage sack or laundry bag in that column, so its' just one group of 10 instead of 10 separate things)

[Rice]

What my Grade 3 teacher did still sticks with me.

She had finger puppets: a prince (ones), a queen (tens) and a king (hundreds) - I'm sure she had creative names for them two, maybe even Prince One, Queen Ten, etc.???
When the prince got too many ones (ie more than 9) he didn't have room for them in his castle so he'd have to give a group of them (ten) to the queen so he'd have more room if he got any other ones.
The same works when you get to borrowing - he has to go ask the queen to borrow one of hers (which is the same of ten of his) in order to subtract the number.

Its all the same idea but sometimes a narrative helps, or even the visual/pictorial.

We've had our math issues over the years, too. Blessings as you work through them this time.

[queenireneof3]

thank you for the great ideas! We will try those tomorrow!

This idea of carrying seems rather big and important. From what I can tell, it doesn't seem like we will spend enough time on it in the 1b book to really understand it well. Does anyone know if this topic gets taught again? With the same amount of attention or less? How much should he truly grasp while we are in 1b?

Thank you!

[MomtoJGJE]

all of it gets worked on again and again... he does not have to get it perfectly in 1b

[queenireneof3]

ok, good to know! That is one thing i haven't figured out yet, is how long to sit on a topic when he doesn't quite get it. Or maybe the problem is, I'm not sure what level of understanding to shoot for before moving on. Julie has mentioned before to keep moving through the workbook and not get caught up for too long. If he has trouble working through the workbook's questions, i feel as though we shouldn't keep going on. but maybe I am trying to teach it so that he truly has mastery of the topic and that is not the expectation... Thank you for all your advice. I will be trying those today with him! Please pray for me!

[countrymom]

Singapore introduces a subject the first time without the expectation of total master. It is kind of like exposing the child to the idea, and we will come back to it later. Now that we are almost done with 3B I have figured this out and know to do all the activities, slow up a day or two if you wish, then go on. It will be covered more thoroughly in the next book. I was in that same rut at one point too and I have realized that often by the time we get to it again the child is ready to master it.

[my3sons]

Singapore introduces a subject the first time without the expectation of total master. It is kind of like exposing the child to the idea, and we will come back to it later. Now that we are almost done with 3B I have figured this out and know to do all the activities, slow up a day or two if you wish, then go on. It will be covered more thoroughly in the next book. I was in that same rut at one point too and I have realized that often by the time we get to it again the child is ready to master it.

This is what I was trying to say earlier about still moving on instead of staying with each concept to total mastery! Thanks for explaining this clearly here, countrymom.

I usually begin by modeling the HOD hands-on math activities. I always have a dry erase markerboard handy to help me explain/write out things. During the HOD hands-on math lessons, I am talking the entire time. (Not hard to imagine knowing me, right?!? ). Seriously though, talking out loud about what you are doing as you are doing it is the connection many kids need. So, be sure to say the scripted parts out loud or just say what you are doing out loud as you manipulate the hands-on lessons. I usually model 3 or 4 of the types of problems suggested, and then I gradually have Emmett take it over as we do several more (or even up to 5 more) hands-on problems for the hands-on part. Then, as Emmett does his workbook part, I keep the hands-on things and the marker board handy to use again if he gets stuck. If he gets stuck, we do the same kind of hands-on math lesson only with the workbook problems. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[queenireneof3]

Thank you everyone! Julie, your advice in the past about moving on and not staying stuck on one area for too long was good advice! We did that the last time we got stuck and he has been able to move on successfully, even understanding some of those problems now that held him up for so long. We got stuck again and I got worried again! ha ha! I have the 2A/2B workbooks and was looking ahead to try to see how adding gets addressed in the next book and it looked more advanced and less review, so I figured he had to have more mastery before getting there. Thank you, Julie and countrymom for helping to relax me!

I ended up making a fun chart for him combining Rice and MomtoJGJE's ideas. I drew a small castle for Prince One, and a bigger castle for Queen Ten. I made up a story about the Royal family and how they love visitors and especially keeping track of how many visitors they have. A royal counter (my son) is assigned the job of updating the number board for how many visitors are in their kingdom. (We used a smaller tens and ones chart with Prince One and Queen Ten's pictures on them for keeping track with number cards). We used small dishes to carry the visitors over the river to Queen Ten's castle when they no longer fit in Prince One's castle (his castle only fits 9 visitors) . They have to stay in their dish (group of ten) in the Queen's castle since she is Queen Ten. We had fun bringing in new visitors and having him update the board. We worked on +1, -1, +10, -10 with the charts and he did it with no problems.

Today we used the charts with dimes and pennies and learned how the group of ten pennies magically change into a dime when they are carried across the river to Queen Ten's castle. Tomorrow we will go back to the workbook and work his addition problems with the new charts. We will keep using dimes and pennies to add and see if it helps.

At the very least, we had smiles and fun during math instead of frustration and tears, and he is able to do all the hands on activities we re-did easily. Thank you for the advice and we will try not to panic every time we get stuck with math, just trust the book and move on!

[MomtoJGJE]

I'm glad some of the ideas worked!

I cannot tell you how many posts I've had about my oldest not getting something in math and being concerned about it. I get it with the others, and just move on. Sometimes even take a break from math for a few days when they get stuck, instead of doing more. It's amazing how much they get during that time. But with my oldest I tend to lose my mind and get so nervous and worried and push more and more and just make it worse. When I remember to breathe and not panic she learns better.

[Gwenny]

I like to use popsicle sticks and rubber bands. Have several groups of 10 wrapped in a rubber band and a bunch of lose ones. Also, 10 groups of 10 sticks wrapped together for 100. It's easy to see the 1 group of 10 and the individual 10 sticks in that group of one 10.